[beerbecue]

Originally Posted by Mac Coinneach

I wouldn't put too much store in information you find on a "Scottish" website that doesn't know what a dirk is

Ok, a UK website....

The purpose of listing that website wasn't for useful information....

Oh forget it.......

[davedove]

Originally Posted by Mac Coinneach

And that would be your truth? A self-affirmed North American Englishman that is the spokesman for the Scottish Tartans Authority? Gieusabreak lad.

As the curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum it seems to me MAC has a fair amount of authority. Just because he's American doesn't mean he's not an authority. Just for our information, what are your qualifications?

Originally Posted by Mac Coinneach

I think what I'm saying here is that tradition (whenever it started) is something that deserves a little respect. And I'm sorry, when it comes to Highland garb, that tradition is not set in the Americas.

I believe most of the members of this board do respect the tradition, but we don't blindly follow it.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

We can keep going as long as you like...

And that would be your truth? A self-affirmed North American Englishman that is the spokesman for the Scottish Tartans Authority? Gieusabreak lad.

No, not my truth. The truth, as can be found by historical research.

And I never claimed to be the North American spokesman for the Scottish Tartans Authority. They have never graced me with such a title, nor do I claim it for myself. Nor have I made the claim to be an Englishman. I simply pointed out that I have an English surname. As far as I know none of my anscestors have lived in Merry ol' England for about six generations (almost 200 years). I also have Scottish descent and a bit of Irish. But I don't claim to be a Scotsman or an Irishman, either. I claim to be an American of Scottish, English, and Irish descent.

But honestly, man, what does any of that have to do with the veracity of my statements. The man who knows perhaps more about the history of tartan than any other living person today, James Scarlett, was born and raised in London and is of English descent. Does that mean his lifetime of research and all his writings on the subject are bunk, because he is a "self-affirmed" Englishman?

Perhaps you'd be better off asking the kilt manufacturers, they'd be the ones that will happily sell any of the myriad of new tartans.

Well, the Stewart Hunting sett is first recorded in the 1819 Key Pattern book of William Wilsons & Sons of Bannockburn. Aside from the scant few archaeological specimens we have of early tartans, this is one of the very first sources we have for any tartan pattern. Does this make it a new tartan?

My point was only this. The author of these "rules" is making a universal claim that is hardly universal. Aside from these specific tartans, he is saying, you must be entitled to wear a Scottish tartan.

You don't get it do you? If one fights in a Scottish regiment they become a clansman to that clan. That is the way it has always been, back before there were Highland regiments.

According to whom? Don't get me wrong. I certainly do not have a problem with someone in a regiment wearing the tartan of a clan, if it is their regimental tartan. But you say that makes him a clansman? Not according to the "rules" you posted, which mentioned nothing about regimental service as a criteria. It mentioned only surname and descent.

I'm just judging things by the standards that you were suggesting, that's all.

Yes, and that is where clan affiliations came from. And septs too I believe?

Go back and re-read my point here, I don't think you are getting it. Tailor is listed as a sept of the Clan Cameron. All the name Tailor means is that you had an ascestor whose occupation was a tailor. Does this mean that the Camerons had a monopoly on making clothing in Scotland? Likewsie Weavers with the MacFarlanes?

Regarding wearing your mother's tartan:

I've already responded to this.

Yes, and it was quite unsatisfactory. You said that only if your mother divorced and you took her maiden name could you wear her tartan.

Number one, that also is nowhere in the "rules" that you posted. It never says anything about divorce.

But what you are suggesting sounds like I have to wear my father's tartan, so long as mom and pop stay together. If they divorce, only then do I get the option of wearing my mother's tartan, but then only if I change my name to her name. Wow, these rules get pretty complicated after a while...

Mackenzie does have a hunting sett (I think they refer to it as "muted"), check the website I linked to.

No, they do not. Aside from an obscure green dress tartan found labelled MacKenzie in the McGregor Hastie collection (from about 1930-50), there are only two MacKenzie tartans -- the standard clan tartan (also used by the Seaforth Regiment), and a dress tartan.

All of the options seen such as ancient, muted, weathered, and the like are not different tartans. They are merely different color schemes, created by those tartan merchants you seem to hold in such low esteem, to be able to offer more variations in their lines of cloth. These color variations date to post-WWII.

A hunting tartan, by definition, is a tartan with a blue/green base (sometimes brown). The clan Hamilton, for instance, has a bright red tartan. They also have a hunting tartan with a green background. The MacKenzie tartan already is green/blue, and therefore there is no need for a seperate hunting tartan for the clan.

Regardless, I have talked with thousands of people every year at Scottish festivals, and who come into the Scottish Tartans Museum. I have read pretty much every book on tartan that can be found in print. I've heard every myth and old wives' tale under the sun about tartan. And I cannot recall even once it being suggested that the hunting tartans were meant for the associated names of a clan until just this afternoon in your "rules."

A question: Aside from the rules listed on the clan web site, what other references have you read regarding tartans?

Aye,
Matt

[KMacT]

Originally Posted by Mac Coinneach

...tradition (whenever it started) is something that deserves a little respect.

George Bernard Shaw said that all great truths begin as blasphemies. Applying this idea to the present discussion, all traditions start when they replace something that came before. Is the knife-pleated kilt traditional, or the box-pleated? The great kilt or the little kilt? I say choose your tradition, regardless of how recently it developed (even if that means starting ones own traditions), show it respect, and follow it as you wish. But if (as you say) all traditions deserve respect, regardless of their age, then we should not pretend that one tradition has a trump over any other. Conclude that one tradition is the tradition and it's likely a contrary one of equal or greater pedigree can be found. This is all a continuum and for me to believe I have found final truth is simply arrogant.

Kevin

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I just posted a new article, from a talk I gave at the Gatlinburg Scottish Festival this weekend, on my web site.
The Sources of the Tartans: or a History of Recording Tartans

Much of the information it contains is pertinant to the discussion here, and should be enlightening.

Aye,
Matt

[highlander_Daz]

Mac just cos matt lives in the US doesnt mean he doesnt know anything about scotland, in fact I notice that on the "bloodisstrong" board you list your location as "B.C." would this be in Canada by any chance British columbia? ? does this diminish your ability to understand anything to do with Scotland?? -lets keep it clean we thrive on debate and discussion but lets not stoop to suggesting that someones location or place of birth diminshes their ability to learn !!!

Far an taine 'n abhainn, 's ann as mo a fuaim
(excuse the ropey spelling-its been a while!!)

[gmcdavid]

A little historical perspective may be helpful. Quite simply, clan tartans as we know them are a 19th century fabrication. In the old days (pre-Culloden) there was no such identification of a tartan with a clan. A nice summary of the evidence can be seen at:

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com...antartans.html

So any "rules" about Clan Tartans must also be of 19th century or later vintage, i.e. from a time that the Highland Clan system was effectively dead. They are inventions from that period and have no relation to the older Gaelic society.

In fact, the early 19th century was the era of the Highland Clearances. At that time the poor highlanders were being evicted from the lands where their ancestors had lived for centuries, to make way for sheep. In a modern phrase, ethnic cleansing. All too often their own chiefs were responsible for this, while promoting tartan wear and the new tartan system in Edinburgh and London.

I do not want to honor "rules" from derived from the tartan mania of that period. I see them as tainted by the Clearances, and as such find them to be somewhat repellant.

Glenn

[cajunscot]

In fact, the early 19th century was the era of the Highland Clearances. At that time the poor highlanders were being evicted from the lands where their ancestors had lived for centuries, to make way for sheep. In a modern phrase, ethnic cleansing. All too often their own chiefs were responsible for this, while promoting tartan wear and the new tartan system in Edinburgh and London.

I do not want to honor "rules" from derived from the tartan mania of that period. I see them as tainted by the Clearances, and as such find them to be somewhat repellant.

Also, Glen, remember that many customs & traditions associated with Highland attire come from the Scottish Regiments of the British Army (one of the few places a Highlander could wear a kilt for a while), and that these regiments forged some pretty impressive history during this time period, i.e. the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimea, etc. While the clearances are nothing to be proud of, the legacy of these Scottish soliders is.

Cheers,

Todd

[philibeg]

Matt, you are brilliant and I have read your posts in this thread with pleasure. Clear, intelligent and with a dash of humor....Indeed, for all your wise posts on this board, all I can say is... THANKS!!

[bubba]

Matt, great article.