Black Irish Tartan?

[cormacmacguardhe]

I got into a discussion with someone, a friend of my daughters, the other day about the kilt he has. He claims it is a "Black Irish" tartan, now I had never heard of this particular one, and the kilt looks quite a lot like a Black Watch. I told him that I did not believe there was such an animal, but he was quite adamant. So, I am going to defer to those on this forum who more knowledgeable than I. Is there such a thing as a "Black Irish" tartan?

[starbkjrus]

Well, I sure I''m no expert but....

Matt Newsome's Compendium of District Tartans does not seem to have an entry for that one nor does the Scotish Tartans Authority. I bow to the experts here but I might suggest that you suggest to your daughter that she exclude the gentleman in question from her dance card from now on.

(Yes, I'm THAT stuffy) :rolleyes:

[michael steinrok]

Is it a black watch, or does it look like one?

[Ruanaidh]

I've heard of the Black Irish, but I didn't know they had their own tartan.

[Sir Robert]

The colour black has for the Irish a Satanic connotation so "Black Irish" = "Damned Irish"

So the Black Irish tartan is the same as the clan McCabre, solid black.

[cormacmacguardhe]

I had another look at the tatan in question, it is a Black Watch. As to the "Black Irish" term, I understood it to refer to people in Ireland who had ancestors who were survivors of the Spanish Armada, the black refers to the fact that they had darker hair and brown eyes.

[mexpiper]

As to the "Black Irish" term, I understood it to refer to people in Ireland who had ancestors who were survivors of the Spanish Armada, the black refers to the fact that they had darker hair and brown eyes.

I have heard it referred to the people who were decendants from the spanish saliors. I also understood that it refers to those people who had the "gift", or where "Fey". I also have heard that it was an american term when people saw irish people that did not fit the red hair stereotype, they called the black haired ones as the "black irish".

so it has many meanings... but maybe someone else has another idea

[MacMullen]

This is from Wikipedia. I don't know how accurate it is, but here's what they have to say on the topic of the Black Irish:

Popular theories
Despite the popular theory that the "Black Irish" are descended from survivors of the Spanish Armada, the genetic contributions of this group were actually fairly insignificant, since most Armada survivors were killed on the beaches, and most of the remainder were able to eventually escape Ireland after a short time. A few Spanish soldiers ended up serving as armed retainers for the Irish chiefs O'Rourke, Sorley Boy Macdonnell, and Hugh O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone, so they might have lived in Ireland long enough to father children, but they were very few in number.

There have also been theories linking the "Black Irish" to the presence of Phoenicians in Ireland during ancient times. However, in the Irish language dubh is the word for black, while gorm (literally blue) is the word for black-skinned. Because of this distinction, many doubt that the Irish would have used the English word "black" to describe their skin colour.

However, no distinct population group of "Black Irish" actually exists, or has ever existed. The myth of the Black Irish was coined in America to explain the existence of Irish people whose appearance did not conform to stereotypical images of what Irish people look like.

Other uses of "Black Irish"
The term has also been used to refer to the offspring of Irish and African slaves in the Caribbean, and many Irish surnames can still be found in the region. Montserrat is the Caribbean island with the greatest levels of Irish heritage as it was forcibly settled by the English crown using Irish slaves. These Irish slaves were eventually replaced by West African slaves who took on the names and surnames of the prior inhabitants, much as African slaves in the United States took on the names of their owners.

In the United States, people with Native American or other dark-skinned ancestry may historically have called themselves "Black Irish", "Black Dutch" or "Black German" to explain their coloring.

[mudd]

If you go to USA KILTS web site and look at the tartans available for the Casual Kilts, you will see one called “Shamrock”. Could this be what your friend called Black Irish?
http://www.usakilts.com/tartans/shamrock.jpg

http://www.usakilts.com/tartans/blackwatch.jpg

[Sir Robert]

I say introduce the kid to X-marks and let him figgure it out for himself.