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Thread: Mystery Jacket

  1. #11
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    Here’s a jacket of similar cut but with Argyle cuffs in velvet. The jacket was made by Kinloch’s in 1959, the buttons are late 19th century cut steel buttons that belonged to a great-grandfather. The jacket can be worn with a traditional bow tie, silk stock or a jabot. It is not too dissimilar to the balmoral doublet
    5D438DBF-7298-44A1-9913-17DD1596E786.jpg
    Being male is a matter of birth,
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    Being a gentleman is a matter of choice!

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  3. #12
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    It looks something like mine in velvet from 1911, though I think the waistcoat is from a different set due to the lining and the fact that you would not need a waistcoat with this type of doublet.






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  5. #13
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    Thanks for the input, suggestions and ideas.

    It went for £51 in the end. Could well have been a bargain, but I'm more interested in getting another tweed jacket at this stage (and already have a PC and a Black Argyll).

    Still smarting at missing out on this one:



    Loved the jacket but already have a kilt in the same tartan and a near identical sporran - great price for the set, but a bit north of my budget for the jacket, so dithered over whether or not I could be bothered off-loading the extras - blinked and missed it... next time!!

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  7. #14
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    We have to keep in mind that the term "regulation doublet" is modern. It's still a mystery to me what "regulation" is being referred to, it being a purely civilian style.

    Doublets were by far the most popular Evening Dress style from c1850-c1930, and they were made in a wide array of cuts. These differences mostly concerned the opening: buttoned up, swinging open, style of lapels, etc. (The Argyll was the only other Evening Dress style jacket in that period.)

    So the jacket in the OP is a doublet, from the looks of it a Kenmore doublet. The Kenmore is one of the few things we know the origin of- Anderson's claims to have "designed" it as a lighter-weight version of the traditional doublet, with simplified and smaller skirts. (Since doublets with various skirt styles existed throughout the Victorian period I don't know how much "designing" had to take place.)

    The doublet in the OP seems designed to be buttoned. Doublets that button in front and waistcoats aren't mutually exclusive- we can see the bottoms of waistcoats peeking out from under buttoned-up jackets sometimes. Actually, until the invention of the Montrose I wonder if it would occur to a gent to wear a jacket sans waistcoat.

    Anyhow here's a Kenmore shown in Anderson's 1936 catalogue



    Here's where they state that they invented the Kenmore Doublet.



    Note that the thing we call the Prince Charlie (or Prince Charlie Coatee, to give its full name) is simply called "the Coatee".

    Here's the opposite page referred to, showing the Doublet.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 16th October 19 at 05:33 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  9. #15
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    Does anyone know what is meant by "hard" and "saxony" tartan in Richard's catalog pages he shared above? I've never heard those terms in reference to tartan.

  10. #16
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    Prince Charlie Coatee and Kinloch Anderson Coatee

    If you look closely at the spread of the buttons on these coatees you'll find some subtle differences. The Prince Charlie Coatee has a spread of buttons very similar to my RN mess jacket with three buttons each side of the chest but without the link at the front (as does the Regulation Doublet). The Kinloch Anderson coatee has a different arrangement with three little buttons actually at the front. Both coatees have three-button military cuffs, while the Regulation Doublet has Argyle cuffs.

    The Prince Charlie has been the ubiquitous evening jacket in Scotland for decades and it's refreshing to see not only a revival of interest in the doublets but also the occasional Kinloch Anderson coatee.

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianHK View Post
    Does anyone know what is meant by "hard" and "saxony" tartan in Richard's catalog pages he shared above? I've never heard those terms in reference to tartan.
    I believe hard tartan is a fabric which has not completed the finishing process. Ie- not stretched, scoured, nor treated; essentially as it came off the loom.
    Saxony- just a guess- would be fully processed fabric, probably using synthetic dyes. It mentions a direct comparison to natural dyes and the hard tartans.

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Bee View Post
    If you look closely at the spread of the buttons on these coatees you'll find some subtle differences. The Prince Charlie Coatee has a spread of buttons very similar to my RN mess jacket with three buttons each side of the chest but without the link at the front (as does the Regulation Doublet). The Kinloch Anderson coatee has a different arrangement with three little buttons actually at the front. Both coatees have three-button military cuffs, while the Regulation Doublet has Argyle cuffs.
    Good eye, the Prince Charlie coatee seems to have had what you call military cuffs, what I've heard called slash cuffs, from the get-go. Yes you'll see differing button arrangements on Prince Charlies, even now, though most modern ones have the three-button-a-side thing.

    Victorian doublets usually had the Argyll (or gauntlet) cuffs, but also slash cuffs and other sorts of cuff treatment as well.

    A Victorian doublet with slash cuffs



    When the Cameron Highlanders introduced doublets into the army, in the 1840s, in green, for their pipers, they had gauntlet cuffs. But oddly enough when the army introduced scarlet doublets for all Highland soldiers in 1855 they had slash cuffs



    The army changed its mind and in 1868 changed to gauntlet cuffs



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Bee View Post
    The Prince Charlie has been the ubiquitous evening jacket in Scotland for decades and it's refreshing to see not only a revival of interest in the doublets but also the occasional Kinloch Anderson coatee.
    Yes indeed the Prince Charlie went from being a novel jacket thought of as being mostly suitable to fashionable young men in the 1920s to becoming near-universal by the 1960s. So refreshing as you say to see its hegemony challenged a bit.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 26th October 19 at 05:50 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Good eye, the Prince Charlie coatee seems to have had what you call military cuffs, what I've heard called slash cuffs, from the get-go. Yes you'll see differing button arrangements on Prince Charlies, even now, though most modern ones have the three-button-a-side thing.
    Victorian doublets usually had the Argyll (or gauntlet) cuffs, but also slash cuffs and other sorts of cuff treatment as well.
    Yes indeed the Prince Charlie went from being a novel jacket thought of as being mostly suitable to fashionable young men in the 1920s to becoming near-universal by the 1960s. So refreshing as you say to see its hegemony challenged a bit.
    My apologies for 'Argyll cuffs,' you are quite right - they are indeed properly called 'gauntlet cuffs.'

    As for the challenges to the Prince Charlie hegemony, this seems to be very much an age thing with the (let's say) more mature wearers leading the way. Amongst younger men I have observed the opposite to be true. I realize, of course, that young men enjoy the security of all looking exactly alike and also that they may have more urgent financial priorities than assembling a collection of jackets for wearing with their kilts, but I recently attended an event which left me with mixed feelings of a negative sort. It was a Sunday morning baptism service at a Presbyterian Church in the very North of England and the parents were Scots with connections to a rugby club in one of the Scottish Border towns. Consequently the congregation was swelled to capacity with kilted young men from over the Border - to a man they were wearing Prince Charlie jackets with black bow-ties.

    I know how this plays out because my son is guilty of this kind of thing - but at least he knows he's being a naughty boy. These young men buy a kilt and a Prince Charlie for evening events and they seem to think "That's it, I've got all the clobber, I can wear it to anything and everything." And that's what they do. In my younger days my first (adult) kilt-jacket was a black Argyll, a jacket which could be and was worn for everything from casual to formal until I felt able to purchase daytime tweeds and evening doublets, which I eventually did. I'm not sure who's to blame for this state of affairs - or even if "blame" is the right word - but perhaps Highland outfitters in the South of Scotland have a hand in this.

    Anyhow, regarding that Sunday morning, it was great to see so many kilts on parade, especially in an English town, but I was left feeling a little disappointed that all these guys seemed blissfully ignorant of what should be worn with a kilt, where and when. I have a golden rule of never being critical of another kilt-wearer's rig (except for my son, of course) and I would rather die than say something that would discourage or put someone off wearing the kilt - so the Sunday morning Prince Charlie brigade were left to go their merry way none the wiser without me spoiling their day. Nevertheless, I felt and I still feel that it's a wee bit sad that they simply just didn't seem to know what's what. In the intersts of not becoming a complete ancient curmudgeon I shall live in hope that each and every one of those guys has his eye on a tweed Crail or a black Argyle in the window of his local outfitter.

  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Bee View Post
    ...kilted young men from over the Border - to a man they were wearing Prince Charlie jackets with black bow-ties.

    These young men buy a kilt and a Prince Charlie for evening events and they seem to think "That's it, I've got all the clobber, I can wear it to anything and everything."
    Ha! Guilty as charged!

    (Myself 40 years ago)



    But yes I've seen the Scottish Prince Charlie Brigade here many times.

    I'm a piper and back 20 years ago I was doing a wedding every weekend, sometimes two. The main local Kilt Hire shop here in Southern California hired out black Argylls. And as is typical for pipers I wore a black Argyll as well.

    But oftentimes I would be piping for a wedding where one side of the family flew in from Scotland and they would invariably arrive in black Prince Charlies. It's how you could tell the Scots from the Americans- the Americans would have a mix of black Barathea Argylls and grey and Lovat tweed Argylls, the Scots would all be in black Prince Charlies.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 3rd November 19 at 06:43 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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