[Jock Scot]

Originally Posted by creagdhubh

Very interesting and intriguing story. You pose a very good question. I look forward to the second half.

Part two is "post 14".

[guitarmatt]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

I understand that your wife is studying at the Royal(Dick)? What a wonderful place. If it were me and your budget is limited, not surprising with the young one(s) and all that, then the most versatile (don't forget our unreliable weather!) purchase would be a tweed day jacket and not a waistcoat. If you want to wear just a waist coat then one, that style will be fine. Might see you at the Royal Highland then?

Yes, she's just finishing at the Dick Vet. Unfortunately it looks like work may take us back to California for a year long internship, but that's only a year, right? I've been thinking of a waitcoat as it would be more versatile to wear with the rest of my wardrobe aside from kilts (shock horror, I know.)

Keep an eye out for me at the show, I've got a tall red headed wife and a short blonde 2yo son, and I'll likely be wearing my Lyndsay kilt since it doesn't seem like I'll convince my wife we can shell out for a handmade in Huntly, which would be more appropriate to my Scottish ancestry.

[Brian K]

Jock,

I don't know as I was entirely surprised by anything in this thread as my mother raised my siblings and me to expect that others would be different and to respect those differences rather than bemoaning them.

That being said, it was a little jarring for me to learn that "matching," whether of leathers or tweeds to tartans, to name a couple, is not a major priority in the Highlands. I was raised that you ALWAYS matched your belt, shoes and watchband (if leather). Patterns should NEVER be mixed and jewelry should be all of one metal unless at least one piece was of mixed metals. (My mother is not a cultural imperialist, but it's hard to escape your upbringing!)

OCRichard posted a photo (in another thread) of a young man in a McCall brochure who was wearing a lovat green tweed jacket and waistcoat with a darker over-check, an Anderson kilt and lovat green hose. I thought it looked fine because it looked like the Anderson Clan tartan that uses lovat or pastoral green rather than the normal bright green of most Anderson tartans. It seems I was in the minority. There were those, however, whose response was (and I paraphrase) "You do not need to worry about matching tweeds and tartans." I guess even my thinking that the outfit was tied together by the similar greens was not even in keeping with Highland sensibilities. Apparently it just doesn't matter. (BTW - that particular version of the Anderson tartan, ITI No. 1660, I think, is now my desktop wall paper)

We have also seen many instances of black shoes worn with brown belt and sporran. American sensibilities are a bit shaken by that, but, again, we're told it's not an issue.

I think the take away from this discussion, for me, is that the principal rule of Highland dress is to stick close to the norm but, whatever you do, wear what you like and feel comfortable in. If you try too hard and put too much thought into it yer jist askin' fer trouble.

Regards,

Brian

[davidlpope]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Alright then you non Scots kilt wearers, a few questions. What have you read or seen on this thread(please let us ignore romantic artistic dreams) that confound you?

Nothing, really, that is confounding. I think that as I consider the subject more and more, though, I personally can't see any way to divorce the kilt from it's Highland origin. That is, I think the kilt is the national dress of Scotland and inherently tied to Highland culture. Attempts to turn it into "just another piece of clothing" fall short in my estimation. Likewise, efforts to make the kilt a pan-celtic garment also seem "artificial". No wonder people scratch their heads when someone wearing a non-traditional kilt walks down the street, or folks wearing kilts in non-Scottish/Highland contexts get asked "Where are your bagpipes?" There's just no nexus for people to latch on to without that connection to Scotland...

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Are there answers that "us locals" have given that have surprised you?

I have been surprised by how "informal" (in an American sense) weddings and funerals seem to be in Scotland. From what I'm gathering, a kilt/tweed jacket/tie is entirely appropriate in Scotland. In my mind that would correspond to a tweed sportcoat/tie and trousers here. I can't imagine showing up at a daytime wedding or a funeral in the US wearing anything other than a suit.

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Are there really that many differences in the way us Scots view(wear) the kilt from the rest of the world?

Absolutely. I think that you're surrounded by folks that wear it naturally because they grew up with it. In the US we're much more limited by not having images of "traditional" highland dress in front of us as examples. As a result, our sensibilities are skewed and most folks tend to view "Highland dress" as what they see pictured in catalogs- Prince Charlie Coatees, black/silver-buttoned Argyll jackets, white hose, plastic sgian dubhs, etc. No wonder tartan doublets look so foreign to us- we rarely see them!

Thanks again to you and the other Highlanders on the site for your willingness to share. I think the overall points that I've personally gleaned from this discussion are:

1. Have fewer Highland Dress items of higher quality (one-off, custom-makes are preferred).
2. Shabby is okay (preferred, in fact?), if the item is high quality and old.
3. Limit the number of kilts that one owns and the numbers of tartans that one wears.
4. Don't focus on matching.(sporran to shoes, hose to kilt, tie to hose, etc.)
5. Eveningwear can be (should be?) flamboyant, compared to non-Highland evening dress.
6. Don't overdress for events during the day (no silver-buttoned jackets, PCs, etc.)
7. Within the realm of accepted highland style, there is ample opportunity to show individual tastes.

Cordially,

David

[wildrover]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Alright then you non Scots kilt wearers, a few questions. What have you read or seen on this thread(please let us ignore romantic artistic dreams) that confound you? Are there answers that "us locals" have given that have surprised you? Are there really that many differences in the way us Scots view(wear) the kilt from the rest of the world? I have a few ideas of some of the answers that you might give, but go on surprise me!

Ok...here's what I got from it...and I'm going to be really, really blunt, and for a moment I'm going to let the relative anonymity of teh interwebs go to my head, because this thread seems like the place for being a little more blunt than usual.

I'm not surprised at all. The comments you guys have made are about what I expected, and I found myself saying "YES! Finally somebody had the balls to come out and say that," more often than I wondered if you'd a recently-emptied bottle of scotch on hand (that thought, really only when I saw your hat full of rocks in a creek bed ). That ought to give an idea of how I perceive kilt-wearing here as opposed to there.

I'm absolutely overjoyed that there's a generation my age, in Scotland, making an effort to wear the kilt well, likely without pretension, and having a helluva good time doing it!

The "executive summary" is that I think you've all quite simply stated that the kilt is a piece of clothing, and like any other outfit, when and how it is worn is dictated by circumstance. I honestly don't think it can be said any more simply than that, and any qualification I can think of comes back to that one sentence. The bear is that many of us here simply don't think about "how" and "circumstance", and there is a collective "we're kilted, so shuttup" attitude of bravado (I'm guilty of it too) that overlooks little details like "appropriate" and "well-presented". Overcoming that kilted hubris really does take input from you guys that have worn kilts regularly as clothing for generations, and understand how to do it well.

The easily offended amongst us should just skip the rest . Really. I turned my snark filter way down when I wrote it. I thought about just not posting it...but, well, I realized that it's been in the back of my mind for a bit, and though I'm neither as loquacious nor as polite as these guys, it's the stuff that came to mind reading through this thread. Beware, gentle and overly open-minded reader, for the following is a close-minded, opinionated rant ...








From the first couple posts from you guys, you cut straight through an awful lot of the bull**** that I see here. Yes, here on Xmarks...maybe not so much in the "traditional" forum...but "anything" does not "go", many things that are marketed as "kilts" are not kilts, a kilt is not a costume and being thoroughly overdressed in what appears to be a costume is as bad as being a Harley rider in a Southpark episode (feel free to Google that).

Your comments led to quite a bit of critical self-examination.

We (outside of Scotland, and the non-specific, collective "we") worry if our sock knife is too big, too small, too far in, too cheap, or there at all. We worry about shoes. We think we need a three foot pigsticker over our back at Highland games. We worry if we don't have a kilt pin, or that nobody will think we're authentic without one of those silly lace up shirts. We pull our socks up too far, our kilts down too far, and we wear what appear to be detonated technicolor rabbits as outside-the-clothes merkins. We think we always need to wear a belt. Same with the sporran. Every accessory is adorned with the crest of a nearly-adopted, far-removed clan full of people we've never met.

Some of us know everything about "our" clan chief, though we've never even met him, nor even been to Scotland, and I'm sure there are even some who identify more with their romantic idealizations than thier own friends and family.

Some of us throw reality to the winds and act like Bonnie Prince Charlie is sailing over the ocean to liberate us, and appear to be ready to pledge fealty to the British crown for the sake of their kilt (ironic, innit?). Others cast common sense after it and assume that every man and boy in Scotland go about kilted on a daily basis.

That's not "kilted rabble", that's a kilted cargo cult (look it up).

We, in our various stages of kiltedness, worry overly much about the accessories and not enough about the presentation, and being a bunch of dudes, it's downright hilarious that we worry so much about the component pieces of our outfits without being able to match a bloody thing to save our lives...or as my girlfriend put it, "wait, this is a bunch of guys all dishing about clothing?!"

We (collectively, here at Xmarks) seem to be too afraid to say "hey, that's not right"...for fear of offending...who? Would we be better to offend a guy who's fairly obviously "skirtified" his kilt and doesn't know it...or worse, has stated that he doesn't want to hear it, because some social convention where he is has prevented him from properly wearing his kilt? Wear pants. They won't kill you. I'm wearing pants right now, and I can assure you, my manhood is intact and fully functional, and I've had plenty of girls say I clean up great in a suit. If knees aren't appropriate, better to leave it home than wear it poorly.

Now what about someone who just happens to be wearing a "men's unbifurcated garment" but wants to call what appears to be fetish-wear a "kilt" for the sake of acceptance? Should we say "you came to the wrong place", or should we instead say "hey, that's a nice kilt you've got there", and proceed to offend everyone who wants to wear a kilt but doesn't want to be associated with goths, fetishists, people who shop at Hot Topic, flamboyant lifestyles, punks, granolas...for I have seen many things here and elsewhere on the web which are not good looking kilts--if they are kilts at all--or which are good looking kilts, but worn completely inappropriately, and I realize it offends me...not in a stuffy sort of "it's a kilt not a skirt" fashion, but more of a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot kind of offended.

I really wish those people would stop maligning kilts by making a joke or a lifestyle statement in the wearing of them...I would rather see a guy in white socks and ghillie brogues than a guy in a kilt and fetish boots, or a guy wearing his PC every time he kilts up, or a guy in what appears to be a pleated, tartan skirt with knee-highs.

I don't care where you're from, what you do, who you're with, please don't make my kilt a joke by making your kilt a joke. For all that we say "kilts are like jeans, wear them with whatever else you'd normally wear", that's not entirely correct...kilts are not widely accepted, they are associated in most non-Scots' minds with a few very specific things (Scotland, parades, bagpipes, freeballing ), they are very unusual and very noticeable...so while you may wear fetish boots or a PC with your jeans all the time, people will judge only you...but as soon as you put on your kilt with the same, the two become linked, and instead of Scottish Roots we get hijacking and costumery.

Sometimes, we even decide we know more about wearing kilts than people who have been appropriately kilted for longer than we've been alive. That always cracks me up...it reminds me of all the times when I knew just enough about something to think that I knew it all, and I tried to tell all the old dogs their tricks were wrong. It's entirely possible that, in writing this, I've "done it again". Maybe. But I sort of doubt it.



Rant off, then, and outgoing snark filter back up...we have all made mistakes like this, if not specifically in the arena of kiltedness, then elsewhere in life. All my crankiness boils down to something I ranted earlier, that it does not matter who you are, where you are or where you're from, as long as you listen to these guys about how to wear your kilt properly, and don't dilute or contaminate our collective kiltedness by wearing it inappropriately or badly. The best resource we have is these guys who grew up around kilts and are wearing them in the culture from which they originated, so for the love of all things kilted, please, please please! listen to them.

BTW, if I step out of line in my kiltedness, I expect to hear about it. Negative feedback is a painful necessity on the road to self-improvement, and I figure if we have the junk to wear kilts in public, then we should be able to take a little constructive criticism when it comes to kilting up in the first place. Stop being so blasted polite, and find a way to say it better than I have!

...Say it like these guys did.

Ok, I've shown my colors, now you can ban me...sigh

Well Jock, is that what you were expecting to hear?

-Sean

[Jock Scot]

Wildrover, Davidlpope, BrianK, Mull.

You failed! You have not said a word that I expected you to say. BUT you have said what I hoped you would say! I am proud of you all. So OK any more questions?

David you need to throw that American way of thinking about clothing back in the bin again. The Tweed day jacket IS a suit in highland terms. The informal events we wear the old tweed jacket and the more important events when a suit equivalent is required then the new(er) tweed jacket is let loose. It is that simple. Don't forget most of you have just bought new kit whilst some of us here have accumulated our kit for considerably longer.

[Radge]

Deleted.

[lammy d]

guitarmatt you could try the Pdsa charity shop in the high-street or Armstrong's in the Grassmarket can be a bit pricey for stuff or try Paul on this sites

[guitarmatt]

Originally Posted by lammy d

guitarmatt you could try the Pdsa charity shop in the high-street or Armstrong's in the Grassmarket can be a bit pricey for stuff or try Paul on this sites

I'd never thought to look in that pdsa, thanks for the heads up. I walk by often and my son likes putting a coin in the plastic dog and cats they have outside. Woe be unto me if I ever try to walk by that shop without at least a penny in my pocket.

I've been in Armstrongs on Grassmarket, and while their selection looks impressive at first, you quickly notice that everything is nearly frayed through and quite pricey.

[Brian K]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Wildrover, Davidlpope, BrianK, Mull.

You failed! You have not said a word that I expected you to say. BUT you have said what I hoped you would say! I am proud of you all. So OK any more questions?

OK, Jock, I'll bite. What was it you EXPECTED us to say? It's nice to know we've learned something from this most interesting thread, but if we knew the answer to that question we might grow a bit in our understanding.

Regards,

Brian