[Teufel Hunden]

I've spent some time on google, and did a brief search on this board and couldn't find exactly what I'm looking for.

Would someone who owns one of these mind taking a pic of the neck area minus the jabot shirt?

I'm planning a semi-traditional kilted wedding, and have decided to replace the jabot shirt with some different georgian-era neckwear. But, having heard the neck resembles a priest's collar, I'm not sure my idea would even work or look good.

A pic would help me sort all the details out. Thanks in advance.

-Sam

[McMurdo]

Here are a couple photos for you, the thing about the Montrose Doublet is that to achieve the shape there is a dart at the top without a jabot or something similar this dart would show.

[MacLowlife]

Not sure exactly how traditional you want to be. You might be able to squeeze in a small ( or very soft) bow tie, or some kind of cravat, (a la Robbie Burns) in that Montrose gap, but McMurdo is absolutely correct about the dart. Depending on what you have in mind, you may have some other options.

I have just looked at four different Montrose jackets. the gap between the collar ends varies slightly from example to example, but seems to almost always be between 2 and 4 inches.

By contrast, the three or four Nehru style jackets I can see handily tend to come close to meeting without actually touching. Their gap is usually around an inch or an inch and a half. Piper's tunics and some other military uniforms actually close, either with a large hook and eye or a hook and an overlapping piece underneath / behind it. Leaving the neck slightly open might work for a certain bohemian effect, depending on how you fill that space.

In addition to traditional "single breasted doublets", you might examine other high necked jackets, like military tunics, parade jackets, Nehru cut tuxedos, etc., to see if one of them will do what you want. You can easily swap buttons out for square Scots style ones. If your conscience doesn't bother you, you might consider a USMC dress tunic, which is dark navy with some very snappy red piping. I do not know if you could use the top pockets or would have to try removing them. There is an eBay seller in the UK who offers velvet Nehru style tux coats and a company called Tripp sells various "goth" parade jackets that might work for you, usually in dark cotton twill with a zipper up the middle. If you have some time, you might also check out band uniforms, like the coatee in my avatar.

Do let us know what you come up with.

[Teufel Hunden]

McMurdo, thanks for the pics!! I have a better idea of what's going on now.





Thanks for the post, MacLowlife.

Originally Posted by MacLowlife

Not sure exactly how traditional you want to be. You might be able to squeeze in a small ( or very soft) bow tie, or some kind of cravat, (a la Robbie Burns) in that Montrose gap, but McMurdo is absolutely correct about the dart. Depending on what you have in mind, you may have some other options.

You're correct in your first sentence, I'm going to see about getting a cravat in there. The aim isn't to be very traditional, just to go for that elegant look I love with some hints of the olde world in it. I'm not married to any particular style yet, so suggestions are always welcome. Robbie Burns is a great example of what i'd like, actually, I'll look more into that.

Originally Posted by MacLowlife

I have just looked at four different Montrose jackets. the gap between the collar ends varies slightly from example to example, but seems to almost always be between 2 and 4 inches.

By contrast, the three or four Nehru style jackets I can see handily tend to come close to meeting without actually touching. Their gap is usually around an inch or an inch and a half. Piper's tunics and some other military uniforms actually close, either with a large hook and eye or a hook and an overlapping piece underneath / behind it. Leaving the neck slightly open might work for a certain bohemian effect, depending on how you fill that space.

Well I do prefer the Montrose specifically over the other styles you mentioned. The neckwear isn't the most important part of the whole piece, but I did want it to be noticeable, while not being distracting.

Originally Posted by MacLowlife

In addition to traditional "single breasted doublets", you might examine other high necked jackets, like military tunics, parade jackets, Nehru cut tuxedos, etc., to see if one of them will do what you want. You can easily swap buttons out for square Scots style ones. If your conscience doesn't bother you, you might consider a USMC dress tunic, which is dark navy with some very snappy red piping. I do not know if you could use the top pockets or would have to try removing them. There is an eBay seller in the UK who offers velvet Nehru style tux coats and a company called Tripp sells various "goth" parade jackets that might work for you, usually in dark cotton twill with a zipper up the middle. If you have some time, you might also check out band uniforms, like the coatee in my avatar.

I'll take a look around, but I'm pretty set on the double breasted look. I could never wear a USMC style, having been a Marine myself But those items look a bit too modern and almost specifically military for me. While the montrose definitely gives off that appearance, I didn't want my attire to be immediately reminiscent of the service.

Originally Posted by MacLowlife

Do let us know what you come up with.

I will. I'm still a bit over a year out from the date in question, but I'll post up as the details get narrowed down.

[OC Richard]

I too have never cared for the fact that our modern 20th century formal doublets, the Montrose and the Sherrifmuir (I think I have the names right...correct me if I'm wrong) have the closed collar from the military style doublet. Back in the 19th century nearly all the civilian formal jackets had open collars with lapels.

A glance though The Highlanders of Scotland (over fifty men in Highland dress in the 1860's) shows that the only military closed collars are on actual military doublets worn by military men in uniform.

I've been thinking and thinking about trying to have made the sort of jacket so common from the 1860's up through the early 20th century, a form that hasn't been made, it seems, for a half-century.

[MacLowlife]

OC, tell your man to move that plaid, so we can see his collar and lapels more clearly! While the two positions are not quite compatible enough to work both ways, any jacket can (theoretically) be buttoned with the collar standing or unbuttoned, with the collar laid flat. The best way to see this is with a pajama shirt, which has relatively little inner facing, or with an "unconstructed" jacket.

This is the kind of thing Ted Crocker knows about.

Over time, tailors have made subtle adjustments that keep us from buttoning our sportcoats up to the neck or from flipping back the stiff military collar to form lapels, but the potential is there. How and why did mainstream highland tailoring abandon the lapelled single breasted doublet with Inverness skirts? You've got me there.

What has this to do with Teufel Hunden's Montrose? Maybe nothing, maybe a lot...If I might hijack this thread just a little further, we might solicit images of 18th and 19th century coats, jackets, and doublets, so that TH can evaluate other options for his cravat...

[MacLowlife]

Teufel H, look at post #12 in a thread I started called MONTROSE MULTIPLEX for a great pic posted by JSFMacLJr. It might offer you some inspiration.

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally Posted by MacLowlife

Teufel H, look at post #12 in a thread I started called MONTROSE MULTIPLEX for a great pic posted by JSFMacLJr. It might offer you some inspiration.

Here's the pic from that post




I LIKE THAT. I think a cravat would look excellent in place of that bow tie. THANKS very much for that.

[labhran1]

Originally Posted by OC Richard

I too have never cared for the fact that our modern 20th formal doublets, the Montrose and the Sherrifmuir (I think I have the names right...correct me if I'm wrong) have the closed collar from the military style doublet. Back in the 19th century nearly all the civilian formal jackets had open collars with lapels.

A glance though The Highlanders of Scotland (over fifty men in Highland dress in the 1860's) shows that the only military closed collars are on actual military doublets worn by military men in uniform.

I've been thinking and thinking about trying to have made the sort of jacket so common from the 1860's up through the early 20th century, a form that hasn't been made, it seems, for a half-century.

It is still being made and in Scotland. We have these made up for our customers on occasion and in fact I think it is one of the best cuts of jacket for kilt dress.

[OC Richard]

Originally Posted by labhran1

It is still being made and in Scotland. We have these made up for our customers on occasion and in fact I think it is one of the best cuts of jacket for kilt dress.

Every time there's a thread where I mention or show that old jacket style, which was nearly univerally worn by civilian pipers from the mid-19th century up through the early years of the 20th, somebody posts saying that they're still being made. However I have repeatedly asked for someone to post a link or a photo actually showing one, and over the last few years no one has yet done so.

Anyhow, here's the clearest photo I have showing the exact cut of this style:



and more:





The earliest depiction I have of this style is from 1865:



The latest depiction I've come across is from a 1940 catalogue:



More rare, but sometimes seen, is a style with the lower-cut front similar to our modern Regulation Doublet:



In any case it makes me wonder why since 1900 we started to put military-style standing collars on some of our civilian formal jacket styles.

This, to me, has everything to do with the original post, which was about how to wear old-fashioned neckwear with a formal Scottish jacket. This modern formal look of a military-style standing collar combined with a lace jabot doesn't appeal to me all that much.