[Heming]

Hello, all.

If I'm posting this in the wrong section, I hope a mod or two will sort it (and me) out in short order.

I was thinking about shoes the other day, as I often do, and surfing the internet at the same time (despite liking shoes AND doing two things simultaneously, Im actually only a man). There, and here on xmts for that matter, I find the word "brogue" being used quite a lot. And quite often it is not being used to describe what I think of as brogues. So this gets me wondering - is there a difference of meaning to the word "brogue" in the US compared to Europe? Or have I been wrong all along? I'm not used to being wrong, you see ...

My definition of a brogue would be a shoe decorated by punching small holes in the leather, either through the shoe or only through a second, decorative layer of leather. I have learnt that brogueing is the art of making these patterns.

But here, and other places on the net, I see the word "brogue" describing pretty much any kind of fancy dress shoe, often with a shiny buckle. Someone was talking about "glennfinnan brouges", and to my knowledge, glennfinnan slippers are never brougued.

So I ask you: Who's confused?

[davidlpope]

Originally Posted by Heming

Hello, all.

My definition of a brogue would be a shoe decorated by punching small holes in the leather, either through the shoe or only through a second, decorative layer of leather. I have learnt that brogueing is the art of making these patterns.

You're right in this. A brogue is a shoe decorated by these punchings. Full brogues are often called "wingtips" in the States.

"full brogue" or "wingtip"- balmoral/oxford construction

"long-wing" brogue or wingtip-blucher construction

Originally Posted by Heming

here, and other places on the net, I see the word "brogue" describing pretty much any kind of fancy dress shoe, often with a shiny buckle. Someone was talking about "glennfinnan brouges", and to my knowledge, glennfinnan slippers are never brougued.

So I ask you: Who's confused?

"ghillie brogues"

"bar-buckle brogues"


You're right, confusion is rampant. "Ghillie brogues" do retain the punchings. Likewise, "bar-buckle" formal brogues. The confusion, I think, is generated by using the term "brogue" to mean "any shoe worn with a kilt." The Glennfinnan shoes are properly just that- shoes, not brogues. To add even more confusion, the term "brogan", having the same roots, historically refers to heavy-soled, ankle high shoes or boots.

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

They are.

Broadly speaking men's lace up-dress shoes come in three basic styles:

The Oxford, which usually has a toe cap, but always has closed laces;
The Blucher, which usually has a plain toe, but always has open laces;
and, of course,
The Brogue, which has a second decorative layer of perforated leather on the toe and heel, and may have either open or closed laces. The brogue is also referred to as the "wing tip" when the second layer of leather isn't perforated.

Usually the Blucher and the Oxford are of fairly light construction while the brogue tends to be a sturdier shoe. Ghille brogues are basically Oxford brogues without a tongue, and (of course) extremely long laces.

So, ordinary "dress" shoes are either Oxfords or Bluchers, which may, or may not, have broguing in which case they are brogues.

[Heming]

So I see I have the pope on my side. What then is the ethymology of the word "brogue"?I had assumed it was French, but am no expert.

And if I were to wear a Glenfinnan or similarly styled shoe with my kilt, how formal should the rest of the outfit be?

[davidlpope]

Originally Posted by Heming

So I see I have the pope on my side. What then is the ethymology of the word "brogue"?I had assumed it was French, but am no expert.

And if I were to wear a Glenfinnan or similarly styled shoe with my kilt, how formal should the rest of the outfit be?

Here's what I came across from a random internet dictionary, can't vouch for the validity:

brogue 1 (brg)
n.
1. A heavy shoe of untanned leather, formerly worn in Scotland and Ireland.
2. A strong oxford shoe, usually with ornamental perforations and wing tips.
[Irish and Scottish Gaelic bróg, from Old Irish bróc, shoe, possibly from Old Norse brk, legging, or from Old English brc; see breech.]

As far as to the second question- I've seen Hamish and Matt wearing these in photos with formal attire. I do think this type of shoe, if worn, goes better with a Sherrifmuir, Montrose, or Kenmore doublet than a Prince Charlie...

[Heming]

Wow! Then "brogue" is actually, as a word, related to the western Norwegian word for trousers! Amazing!

But returning to Glenfinnans: wasn't it the bonnie prince Charlie himself who introduced them? Why then not wear them with "his" coatee?

[davidlpope]

Originally Posted by Heming

Wow! Then "brogue" is actually, as a word, related to the western Norwegian word for trousers! Amazing!

But returning to Glenfinnans: wasn't it the bonnie prince Charlie himself who introduced them? Why then not wear them with "his" coatee?

Studied about this guy in my Old English class in college: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok


Ragnar of the "hairy-breeches"!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by Heming

Wow! Then "brogue" is actually, as a word, related to the western Norwegian word for trousers! Amazing!

But returning to Glenfinnans: wasn't it the bonnie prince Charlie himself who introduced them? Why then not wear them with "his" coatee?

Actually, BPC wore typical 18th century shoes. The coatee that bears his name dates from the 20th century...

Shoes worn with evening dress are very much a matter of personal taste. Traditionalist though I may be, I am not particularly over enamored of ghillie brogues for evening wear. I tend to favor the buckle and strap evening shoe or evening pumps with either buckles or silk bows.

I would think that the "Glenfinnan" would be mis-matched with a Prince Charlie Coatee, but would work with a Montrose, Sheriffmuir, or Kenmore doublet as these are a bit more "antique" in style.

[Dall_Piobaire]

The "Glenfinnan" would look very sharp with a regulation Jabot though??? What thinkest thou MacMillan of Rathdown!

[SFCRick]

I agree with MacMillan, I feel that with a doublet a more formal shoe looks best, with the PC ghillie brouges or wingtips look fine.