[Bugbear]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

In those days, bespoke jackets were the norm,or an adaptation of a second hand jacket that came into the hands of the piper's family. ...

Ah Ha! That sounds like something that goes on on the forum quite a lot.

[OC Richard]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

I think we need to remember that "off the peg" jackets with a standardized description name for a particular style is a modern idea. In those days, bespoke jackets were the norm,or an adaptation of a second hand jacket that came into the hands of the piper's family. In those days,don't forget, every home would have a more than average seamstress on hand as a matter of necessity,so an individual styled jacket was almost inevitable.

Nevertheless, I above gave a photo of a catalogue of the same period from which many of my photos come which have off the peg jackets in four styles.

I have dozens of photos of this same style. It was obviously quite commonly available, in fact nearly universal, a situation quite the reverse of the bespoke/individually styled/home-sewn one you mention.

[Jock Scot]

Originally Posted by OC Richard

Nevertheless, I above gave a photo of a catalogue of the same period from which many of my photos come which have off the peg jackets in four styles.

I have dozens of photos of this same style. It was obviously quite commonly available, in fact nearly universal, a situation quite the reverse of the bespoke/individually styled/home-sewn one you mention.

Well yes and no. It depends what date you are talking about. Also whilst the kilt as been around for centuries for the common man, the rest of the attire was in many circumstances way out of the reach of the common man.So I have no doubts at all that many kilt jackets were home adaptions from secondhand, even fourth hand clothing. It was not much different in the highlands I grew up in, in the 1940's. I still to this day see one of my kilt jackets that I had new and then in time grew out of in the early 1950's, much adapted and now being worn by what must be the fifth family to own it! Any new kilt attire in those days and earlier were for the wealthy, anything else were adapted hand-me downs.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by OC Richard

Nevertheless, I above gave a photo of a catalogue of the same period from which many of my photos come which have off the peg jackets in four styles.

I have dozens of photos of this same style. It was obviously quite commonly available, in fact nearly universal, a situation quite the reverse of the bespoke/individually styled/home-sewn one you mention.

Off the peg clothing has probably been available since the mid-19th century, if not before. I'm not certain, however, if this was the case with Highland attire. I suspect that most Highland attire was, until quite recently, like the kilt itself, if not bespoke, then certainly made-to-measure and that the purchaser would have been able to choose from several different styles of jacket, along with specifying things like buttons and trim. By way of an example, in the late 1960s Jenners, in Edinburgh, could supply a "made to measure" jacket in three to five days-- although the wait time has increased in the ensuing 40 years, firms like Stewart Christie, Kinloch Anderson, and MacKenzie Frain (to name but three) still offer their customers the choice of "made to measure" Highland attire in addition to off-the-peg (presumably for those who can't wait 6-10 weeks for their kit) and totally bespoke.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by The Deil's Chiel

One thing that I have noticed is that today's Regulation doublets do not button in front, or else they are held closed with two small buttons attached by a short link, the diagonal rows of three buttons on either side (as found on the Prince Charlie) seem to have replaced the three functioning buttons that used to be in the front of the Regulation doublet in examples back to the 1950's and earlier.

I don't believe the buttons on regulation doublets are intended to actually button, despite the presence of button holes on the opposite side of the jacket. Looking at a number of photos and illustrations from the period 1900-present day, I can't find a single example of the jacket closing. Just as a tails coat is intended to be worn open, so it seems that the dress Argyll, the Regulation Doublet, and the Prince Charlie coatee are also intended to be worn open.

[SteveB]

I would like to add a little bit to Jock Scot's comment.
There were catalogues of clothing displaying jackets with prices, but the illustration was a small sample of the variations that would be provided when the jacket was ordered. Very few shops had more than a few samples for display, and would make the jacket, trouser, etc. to order or custom order through the vendor. In the 1950's to early 60's, most of the garments ordered from U.K. catalogues would be quite different than the image in the catalogue. This was true for me as a lad as I was very skinny and tall. Much of my clothing was bespoke, so it would actually fit me. I was growing like the proverbial weed, so my parents would order to allow for some growth from the time of order and several months later when it would arrive in the States. My mother would sometimes need to tack in some of it for proper fit. To make the garment to fit right and look reasonable, the maker oft varied the style of the collar, cuff, shoulder, and one time significantly the way it buttoned.

The reason for ordering from the U.K. was simple. Here in the U.S. the industrialisation of clothing manufacture limited you to off the peg, or something that could be cut down from an off the peg garment. To have something made longer, one had to import from a place that still knew how to make to measure.

[MacLowlife]

SPEAKING of difficult to categorize jackets, I was lucky enough to grab this one on eBay. It is black velvet, with red ( not pink, as they may appear) details. The unlucky part is that my recent equatorial expansion makes this one a goal, rather than a daily wearer:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I reckon it is a piper's doublet- the shells do not come off.

The kilt is made of wool ( with a few moth holes to prove it ) and has been altered a few times in its life. It has a costume company tag and seems to have been worn most recently right-over-left, though there is room for a generous male torso after you remove one of the take-up tucks in the waistband. It buttons with no straps and has fairly narrow aprons at both ends. And there is a plaid, too.

A deal like this appears just one day every hundred years...

[OC Richard]

sorry to resurrect this old thread but I recently came across this photo, lablelled with the date 1881 by somebody... but this particular postcard was printed in 1910.

In any case, it shows several variations of the jacket I'm curious about.

Note that in the two men on the right the lapels are long and the jacket is basically a Regulation Doublet (though with braid/lace edging as is often seen in old photos and in The Highlanders of Scotland). But the men in the centre have jackets which button higher, with smaller lapels like the suit coats of the period. The man on the left might have a doublet with standing military collar. The jackets, whether they have low lapels, high small lapels, or a standing collar are otherwise similar. The board makes me think that this might be a group of Highland Dancers.

[MacLowlife]

Would you want to be dancing with those sporrans? Having said that, they stand like dancers.

[Jock Scot]

Originally Posted by OC Richard

sorry to resurrect this old thread but I recently came across this photo, lablelled with the date 1881 by somebody... but this particular postcard was printed in 1910.

In any case, it shows several variations of the jacket I'm curious about.

Note that in the two men on the right the lapels are long and the jacket is basically a Regulation Doublet (though with braid/lace edging as is often seen in old photos and in The Highlanders of Scotland). But the men in the centre have jackets which button higher, with smaller lapels like the suit coats of the period. The man on the left might have a doublet with standing military collar. The jackets, whether they have low lapels, high small lapels, or a standing collar are otherwise similar. The board makes me think that this might be a group of Highland Dancers.

Unless I am very much mistaken that looks like the now disused Inverlochy distillery appearing over the shoulder of the man on the right. Sorry that is no help with the jacket though.