X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums)


Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them. This forum sub-section is for those interested in learning about and discussing Traditionally made kilts and to discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-24-2010, 07:11 AM
CameronCat's Avatar  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 123
Visions of Scottishness

Mornin' all,

I found this story (http://tinyurl.com/yc2mw4z) in today's Caledonian Mercury, a new on-line paper covering most things Scotland.

I thought readers here might find the story of some interest.

Enjoy. (or at least be surprised...)

JT
  #2  
Old 03-24-2010, 11:28 AM
Jock Scot's Avatar  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Highlands,Scotland.
Posts: 8,254
I can't help but agree with the article and many of us have been saying much the same for quite some time. Nevertheless the tartans that "the brothers" dreamt up are nearly two hundred years old and actually add to the history of tartan in my view. Sir Walter Scott, other authors, various artists, these two brothers, romantic dreams have all been ruthlessly used by a hard selling tourist industry for well over 100 years now in all honesty it is very hard to believe much of Scottish history. So flawed that it demonstrably is. Sad, I am afraid but very true.

Last edited by Jock Scot; 03-24-2010 at 11:43 AM.
  #3  
Old 03-24-2010, 01:03 PM
McClef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: South Wales UK
Posts: 9,054
Interesting about them coming from Wales!
__________________
Reverend Earl Trefor the Sublunary of Kesslington under Ox, Venerable Lord Trefor the Unhyphenated of Much Bottom, Sir Trefor the Corpulent of Leighton in the Bucket, Viscount Mcclef the Portable of Kirkby Overblow.

Cymru, Yr Alban, Iwerddon, Cernyw, Ynys Manau a Lydaw am byth! Yng Nghiltiau Ynghyd!
(Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Isle of Man and Brittany forever - united in the Kilts!)
  #4  
Old 03-24-2010, 01:52 PM
cajunscot's Avatar

Retired Forum Moderator
Forum Historian

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 9,712
Matt has a very interesting take on the brothers and their "Magnum Opus" here:

http://albanach.org/fraud_to_fact.htm

I'll let him speak on it himself though.

T.
  #5  
Old 03-24-2010, 03:13 PM
creagdhubh's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio (Originally from St. Louis, Missouri)
Posts: 2,642
Very interesting article. It just reconfirms my enduring belief that the so-called "Stuart" brothers were complete frauds. Thanks for posting!
__________________
Caol Anndra Ghobhain Mac a' Phearsain
Kyle Andrew Smith Macpherson
www.clan-macpherson.org
www.clanchattan.org.uk
  #6  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:51 AM
Andrew M. Stewart's Avatar  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
I can't help but agree with the article and many of us have been saying much the same for quite some time. Nevertheless the tartans that "the brothers" dreamt up are nearly two hundred years old and actually add to the history of tartan in my view. Sir Walter Scott, other authors, various artists, these two brothers, romantic dreams have all been ruthlessly used by a hard selling tourist industry for well over 100 years now in all honesty it is very hard to believe much of Scottish history. So flawed that it demonstrably is. Sad, I am afraid but very true.
To quote the late world champion piper John Wilson "It's all Bonny Doon like romanticisms of ancient gaeldom"
__________________
Furth, Fortune and Fill the Fetters!
  #7  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:06 PM
fluter's Avatar  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Columbia, SC USA
Posts: 1,968
Quote:
Originally Posted by McClef View Post
Interesting about them coming from Wales!
Many good things come from Wales, as well! Like Wallaces, and massed choirs, and, err ... well Wallaces, anyway.
__________________
Ken Sallenger - apprentice kiltmaker, journeyman curmudgeon
  #8  
Old 03-26-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Soup-erior, CO
Posts: 855
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluter View Post
Many good things come from Wales, as well! Like Wallaces, and massed choirs, and, err ... well Wallaces, anyway.
What about dark-haired girls with fair skin and blue eyes?
  #9  
Old 03-27-2010, 06:07 AM
OC Richard's Avatar  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Orange County California
Posts: 1,886
Anyone interested in reading about these putative Sobieski Brothers (or Hay-Allan Brothers or whatever) and their impact on tartans should pick up

Scotland's Forged Tartans

by

Donald Stewart and J Charles Thompson

Paul Harris Publishing Edinburgh

The amount of harm these fakers did to Scotland's tartans is tremendous.

Not only did they invent a large number of ugly tartans, they also lifted some very lovely traditional tartans and changed the design around a bit, their changes always making the tartans both more simple, and clumsy.

In nearly every case the tartan weavers, to this day, have followed their simplifications of traditional designs rather than going back to early pattern books for the real designs.

Their approach to tartan design was cretinous.

They knew nothing about weaving or tartan design and misunderstood the whole idea of tartans, thinking that tartans were analogous to heraldry.

Therefore, their simple-minded and clumsy designs consisted of two, three, or four equal stripes. Traditional tartans of the day were far more complex and had lovely proportions.

Here's the Sobieski-Stuart-Stolberg-Hay-Allan tartan spotter's guide:

Their designs, as tartan experts have pointed out, were obviously designed on the drawing-board and not on the loom.

Their most basic was two equal stripes, then three, then (can you imagine it!) FOUR equal stripes! Thier head must have just about burst when they designed tartans of such daring complexity.







What traditional tartans looked like: (some pre-1745 tartans)









An example of how a clumsy Hay-Allan version replaced the much nicer traditional version is Fraser. Logan (1831) gives a nice tradtional-looking design, which the Hay-Allans simplified into one of their several four-equal-stripe designs. The weavers have used the Hay-Allan design over the real one ever since.

Last edited by OC Richard; 03-27-2010 at 06:29 AM.
  #10  
Old 03-28-2010, 09:09 AM
creagdhubh's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio (Originally from St. Louis, Missouri)
Posts: 2,642
Very interesting Richard and you are quite right. Thanks for sharing.
__________________
Caol Anndra Ghobhain Mac a' Phearsain
Kyle Andrew Smith Macpherson
www.clan-macpherson.org
www.clanchattan.org.uk
Closed Thread

X Marks Advertisers
For Quality Scottish Made Products at Affordable Prices



Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
X Marks Sponsors


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:07 PM.


Copyright 2010 by Steve Ashton
Do not reproduce or re-transmit anything on www.XMarkstheScot.com without the express, written permission of the Original Author or the forum owner, Steve Ashton.
Designed by vB Skin Zone Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2