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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post
    I think "uncomfortable" may not be the right word - we are mystified about why most Scots who move to, say, England lose all interest in the old country after one generation whereas, over the Pond, a need to maintain "roots" persists for so long. "kin" is just not a word that has any real meaning in the UK. It may be in part that those who crossed the Atlantic put it about that they had been evicted even though most were sufficiently well off that they could pay their passage and chose that route rather than walk in poverty to the Glasgow slums where life expectancy was around 30 years. Who had the better deal?

    Alan
    Thank you for the considered response Alan. I know that this subject has been long debated on this forum and we are not going to settle it this round either. You are indeed correct no doubt the reasons to leave were many. I can see it in my own family. My mother came from Nova Scotia and as far as we know her family (Cameron, MacLeod, MacNeil and Kerr) have been there for 250 years so may well be results of clearances. My paternal grandparents came to Canada with a family in 1919 but that had much more to do with shipyards closing. They built a good life in Canada but always made clear where they came from.

    In this country when people talk about the crime of "cultural appropriation" it is usually in reference to Native Canadian/American symbols,religion or dress. So here we children of immigrants sit confused and appropriating whether we turn forward or back.

    Please understand I am saying this all somewhat tongue in cheek. I have been around this world long enough I know who I am and I don't need anyone's permission to be me.

    I used the word "Kin" in a feeble attempt at literary allusion to the quote from the Oxford student who talked of "kindling a sense of kindred spirit". There is a reason I had to make a living in sales rather than as a writer.
    Last edited by Singlemalt; 21st February 19 at 01:18 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    I believe the difference is that those who migrated south to England were immediately integrated into that other culture, and likely forced to minimise their Scottish roots for the sake of getting along. Whereas the shiploads of Scots who arrived in the New World created their own communities that were familiar to them. In other words, they took their Scottish culture with them and built it anew, since there was (at the time) no existing culture that needed to be blended into.

    Most of America was settled in ethnic pockets. We have large areas settled by Germans, or Polish, or Scots, or English, or Irish, or Chinese, and the list goes on. Each of these cultural pockets retained a stong sense of their homeland, and that in itself became part of being an American. We identify not only as Americans, but as where our people came from.
    The last paragraph above, is accurate. Half of my family, & several thousand Spaniards & Portugese, left the Old Countries between 1909-1911. After 2 years in the Hawaiian Islands (laborers, not tourist), the majority seem to have settled in the lower half of the San Francisco Bay area. They formed lodges, societies, & clubs. Simple reason, preserve their heritage & cultural ways. They, eventually, bought buildings for their use. Gatherings / meetings were huge. Most offspring (my Mother's generation) had wedding receiptions in the halls. Guests, were many of the people that made the trek through Hawaii. Now, descendents have moved. Memberships dropped to nothing. Sadly, buildings were sold, due to land values. Many of the groups, simply gave up.
    "I can draw a mouse with a pencil, but I can't draw a pencil with a mouse"

  3. #13
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    In my own opinion, we have spent too many decades fostering and cultivating a victim culture, in the current Western world. Quite often, the grand-parents of todays victim class, chose to leave their pass behind, so their children could have a better life. People aren't often forced to change, other then by themselves. And in today's climate the grand children lament the forced loss of something they never had, and blame others for it. I've seen this in Nova Scotia. Many times the greatest shame a person can have in their culture, comes not from outside, but from inside.

    There is also nothing wrong with being unshackled from the burdens of one's birth and starting over.

    As to cultural approperting from others... there are many on this forum that have no Scot in them, or have to hunt hundreds of years to find one.

    And who owns a culture? I do not speak on behalf of those who drive a truck, any more than another can speak for me. The same goes for where I live, work etc. I can no more tell someone to not wear a kilt, regardless of heritage, than another to give that person permission.

    Opinions are like ... blank .. And everyone has one.

    Cheers to the self-reliant, and those whom are victim to no one, and chose to blaze their own path in life, beholden to no one, and in control of their own agency.

    Frank
    Last edited by Highland Logan; 21st February 19 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Spelling, not corrected... I own it... it's all about the content.
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

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  5. #14
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neloon View Post
    I think "uncomfortable" may not be the right word - we are mystified about why most Scots who move to, say, England lose all interest in the old country after one generation whereas, over the Pond, a need to maintain "roots" persists for so long. "kin" is just not a word that has any real meaning in the UK. It may be in part that those who crossed the Atlantic put it about that they had been evicted even though most were sufficiently well off that they could pay their passage and chose that route rather than walk in poverty to the Glasgow slums where life expectancy was around 30 years. Who had the better deal?

    Alan
    You only have to look back to James VI and his successors, none of whom had any interest in Scotland, despite their Scottish ancestry. I think there is an American simile for this and that is “carpetbaggers” . The type of individual prepared to sell his country out for a more lucrative living elsewhere is nothing new. And England does not have a monopoly on such individuals.

  6. #15
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    It seems that the jetstream has been bringing warm air from the Caribbean. Long may it last.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    You only have to look back to James VI and his successors, none of whom had any interest in Scotland, despite their Scottish ancestry. I think there is an American simile for this and that is “carpetbaggers” . The type of individual prepared to sell his country out for a more lucrative living elsewhere is nothing new. And England does not have a monopoly on such individuals.
    Carpetbaggers are scammers or con-artists. You seems to be describing a Quisling or Benedict Arnold.
    Drink to the fame of it -- The Tartan!
    Murdoch Maclean

  8. #17
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    Interesting to me that many do not understand the history here. Many English Scots were peers, gentry, or younger
    sons married into England for land and title reasons. Most, of course, were not, but within family connection one was
    able to pick and choose among lands and titles to marry into. Many cases of making a name change to inherit. Greed
    and class were relevant. When Oglethorpe needed troops to fight the Spanish, he thought of Scots. Did he go to the Highlands? No. He approached highland absentee landlords to oversee raising a company, which they did. The promise
    of land brought some who had prospects there but would not have their own land. Read the documents. Name - servant
    to so and so. Name, tailor, servant to so and so. A very large percentage who came here would never had left without
    pressure from absentee landlords and dire economic oppression. And I do not lightly use that word. As I have said in prior posts, no one confiscated kilts at the docks. No one said, you must choose new name. No one said you cannot take
    musical instruments or the lyrics to songs. Ceilidh is a tradition going back time out of mind, even further than the
    thousands of years tartan has been around. The kilt has not "appropriated", it was willingly and happily exported with
    folk who were discarded and thrown on the trash heap of other shores.

    Do not think I am crying victim here. I'm not. This sort of thing has always happened. My surname comes from Danes
    forced out, settling in Lorraine. Arriving in England with William in 1066. My Irish Joyces were descended from Norman knights married into Ireland in hopes of inheritance that didn't happen, but it's now a native name there. Similarly, my MacCabes arrived in Ireland as gallowglass troops; now considered a native Irish name. My Cones arrived here sold by
    Cromwell. And on and on. Few chose to come, which is not to say none did. We all got here.

    Arriving here into vast forests, these folk dealt with what folk always have and thrived. They thrived because of who
    they were and whence they came and what they brought with them. I'm happy to be from where I am and to be who I am. I'm pretty much in awe of who my ancestors were and how they fared. Could I pull off ten percent of that? I will
    not apologize for having respect and gratitude for what they endured and accomplished; nor for loving what they taught me to love.

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  10. #18
    The Q's Avatar
    The Q is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    Thanks for your impression of the article which I assume is from a fairly young undergraduate.
    I think you may be missing the point, however, in that English institutions, such as Oxford University tend not to welcome participation from the “Celtic fringes” such as Scotland. While it would be wonderful for these scions of the English establishment to turn over their hegemony over such matters to a Celtic fringe, it is unlikely to happen, and, in fact, it never has in the over 300 years since the union of parliaments.
    I think you are confusing Wealthy with English, the Caledonian societies will have been started by those with immediate Scottish family, the fact that that may be a generation or two down the line. has changed acents. Most Scots regarded David Cameron as Pure English, the fact that his father was from Scotland made no difference (and by chance DC went to Brasenose) Oxford and Cambridge will quite happily have anyone from anywhere.

    However since you now have to pay to go to an English university wherever you come from, But Scottish universities are free to Scots, has reduced the number of Scots going to any English University. The surprise at him being there was probably him being rich enough to pay to go to an English University and ignore free Scots Universities..

    And finally there is a huge difference between a Ceilidh in a village hall or someones front room and that in aristocratic ballroom. The Universities basis for the Ceilidh will have been that in in a ballroom, as was the basis for the universities themselves as places for the wealthy ..
    Last edited by The Q; 22nd February 19 at 07:19 AM.
    "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give"
    Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill

  11. #19
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    Interesting. The author seems to suggest that the discomfort he and his fellow Scottish students feels isn’t anglophobia but rather classism.

    It’s not that the balls are put on by Englishmen, but rich Englishmen. The words “posh” and “landed” get tossed around throughout the article and “toff” appears in the comments section.

    It seems very petty to me.
    Last edited by FossilHunter; 22nd February 19 at 09:20 AM.
    Descendant of the Gillises and MacDonalds of North Morar.

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  13. #20
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    I think it would be well to recognise that this was written by a would-be journalist to win a prize sponsored by a political outfit which we cannot therefore discuss on this site. As so often, this hampers many transatlantic debates here.

    Alan

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