What's Modern Kilt Wear> ...or...what's this subforum really about?

[Jock Scot]

While on the other hand this is a Native Born Scot, living in Scotland, wearing a Scottish made kilt.

Hummm, I knew choosing 1980 as the demarcation line between traditional and modern was a mistake and would come back and haunt us and I said so at the time.Traditional kilts-----traditional anything---fishing tackle is a classic case in point-----are not frozen in time, they evolve, perhaps slowly and often in subtle ways and there is a real danger of being too precise about these things and I am afraid that it is also not very helpful in "our" kilt world to be so. Many here, see things solely in "black and white" which can and does make things unnecessarily complicated when having an Internet discussion!

On the whole I think pictures prove very little as they only prove that "something" happened at that split second of time and who knows what happened just before and just after the picture was taken and the reason -----there could be many and that are not obvious to the viewer later.Unhelpful and inaccurate conclusions can and are very easily drawn from pictures, interesting though they may be.

Right then Steve's picture. Even to my old traditional eyes Steve is casually and traditionally dressed for the 21 century. It is not what my father would call casual, but then, some 50 years have passed since his time. So alright Steve's kilt has hidden pockets and Steve is wearing a tie, no jacket though----something that my father's generation would have difficulty with, but these days is generally accepted as casual-------------and traditional.

The other fellow is a mess!But then he appears to have been working and looking at his sharpest would be difficult no doubt, he is wearing a tie though.Also work clothes are not generally noted for sartorial elegance either. Nevertheless just looking at his kilt(in truth, I personally have difficulty calling it that) it is pushing the boundaries. There is nothing wrong with that, but for now, his kilt cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as traditional. Maybe in time, who knows when, it may be, or maybe not.

The real problem is defining these things and as this interesting thread is illustrating wonderfully it is a difficult thing to be too precise over.I think much of this is down to the Internet where things are not allowed to evolve over time, a lot of time perhaps. The new is there for all to see at an instant, impressions, good or bad, are given and positions on point of view inevitably and quickly follow.

The unarguably "modern" version of what goes under the heading of a kilt makes no pretensions to be anything other than modern with, studs, pockets, non tartan,non tweed,buckles, chains etc, and it matters not one jot whether I and others like them. Some people do and who am I to tell them otherwise, unless invited to comment on their choice of course. However, general comment, firmly voiced even, is fair game on this and any matter, as long as it is courteously put.

Each to their own.

[The Wizard of BC]

An interesting response Jock, Actually in the photo you quote my jacket is over the back of a chair just out of the frame. This is, even by your standards, permissible as the vest is finished in the back and suitable for wear sans jacket. And especially as this photo is not in public but was taken on an enclosed and covered patio where two friends are sharing a pint.

And of all people I would have thought you would recognize Howie Nicklesby of 21st Century Kilts located in Edinburgh and who an article is about on another but current thread.



The reason that the 1980's was chosen for the starting date for this forum section is because it is truly when things began to change with the wearing of the kilt. Between the period of Edward VII and the 1980's there was only one kilt. The type popularized and standardized by the military. Over the years all the myths and 'rules' developed and by the 1950's and 60's there was so much myth and so many 'rules' that the kilt was dying as a daily piece of clothing. It was relegated to pipe bands, military parades and the odd wedding.
The Prince Charlie coatee and the Argyle Jacket come from military uniforms. Spats, and pipers plaids come from pipe bands. (As do white hose by the way.)

Then, within a very short time frame everything changed.

Howie Nicklesby began to make Traditional style, hand-sewn, 8 yard kilts from non-traditional fabrics. Camo and sliver lame.

At about the same time, half way around the world, Steven Villagas cut the crotch out of a pair of cargo shorts and created the MUG.

These two events opened the eyes of the world. No longer did we feel bound and restricted to the quasi military uniform or the matchy-matchy world of the pipe band.

Since the day that Howie and Steven showed us that the kilt could again be worn as everyday clothing, and not costume reserved for special occasions, a renaissance has transformed how the kilt is worn. We are here today, talking about kilts, because of what these two did then. There are far more people wearing the kilt today, and wearing them everyday, than before the 1980's.

I was recently the keynote speaker at two full formal military events. Black Tie with full ribbons and medals was specified on the invitations. I dressed in full Prince Charlie and all the traditional accessories as required by the level of formality of the event.
But today I dressed for my regular rounds at the Royal BC Museum and wore my Victoria, City of Gardens Kilt (with pockets) a dark green shirt from my closet and my normal penny loafers. I wore clothes.

This is what this section of the forum is for. It is where those of us who wear the kilt as normal everyday clothing can find advice, help and inspiration to wear the kilt as clothing, overcoming the myths and rules of a world we don't belong to.



There is a very good current thread titled "kilt tops accessories" in the General Kilt Talk section that would fit here very well. It talks about the kilt worn without the myth and rules and yet remaining a kilt.


We who post here are not rebelling by breaking the rules; we are recognizing that the rules of pipe bands and the military do not apply, or may be wrong, to wearing the kilt on a daily basis as simple clothing.

This section is for those of us who know the rules of the Traditional Kilt section and realize that the rules may not apply to our circumstances.

This section is also for the Alt.Kilt wearer and the Stillwater kilt wearer.

And it is for those who choose to ignore the rules and make their own fashion statement.


For someone from the strict Traditional world to post in the Modern Kilt Wear section and say " On the whole I think pictures prove very little" is strange, as on this forum "No Pics, it didn't happen." is the rule. I share those pics as examples of modern kilt wear in the Modern Kilt Wear section of the forum.

You also say of Howie "his kilt cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as traditional." Well, gee wiz, that's the point here. Howie is not and does not intend to be traditional. I think you are missing the point with your post entirely.


This is the Modern Kilt Wear section of the forum. We are not trying, and failing, to wear our kilts in the Traditional manner as you would. We are trying, and succeeding, to wear the kilt as part of our everyday clothing.

One statement you make in your post is very true. You said "and it matters not one jot whether I and others like them."

But then you follow it with, "However, general comment, firmly voiced even, is fair game on this and any matter, as long as it is courteously put." This, I'm sorry, is not true here, asked for, or welcome. We already know that you do not approve of our kilts or how we wear them.

I would never presume to post in the Historical Kilt Wear or the Traditional Kilt Wear sections of the forum (or anywhere else for that matter) denigrating your choice. I would never direct the disparaging comments you have made here, towards how you choose to wear the kilt. Please show us the same courtesy.

[Jock Scot]

Steve, with the greatest of respect can I suggest that you read my post again. I am agreeing with you, mostly! And where we don't, I am pointing out the difficulties, for all of us, of defining these differances.Of course people know where I stand on these matters and I am glad they do, but in my post there is not one major general criticism--apart from one particular point that I personaly have trouble with----and even then I have openly said that others are more than free to do as they choose.

As to the other chap in your picture, yes of course I know the name, but I have no idea what he looks like-----until now.

[The Wizard of BC]

Nothing would be gained by a further response.

I will not be responsible for having another thread silenced by being provoked into a quarrel.

What to the modern kilt wearers think this forum section should be about?

[Jock Scot]

Nothing would be gained by a further response.

I will not be responsible for having another thread silenced by being provoked into a quarrel.

What to the modern kilt wearers think this forum section should be about?

I am really sorry that you ever thought there was a quarrel. As to the above, it seems we agree on that too.

[paulhenry]

Nothing would be gained by a further response.

I will not be responsible for having another thread silenced by being provoked into a quarrel.

What to the modern kilt wearers think this forum section should be about?

It's dificult to know exactly what this bit of the forum should have,and it is with a certain ammount of caution that I suggest that positivity would be much better than many of the negative views that always seem to posted by the very traditional members here. The line about remaining silent if not having anything good to say is a good one.This shouldn't mean that there is not a good debate , but phrases like "that's not the proper way to wear a kilt" or indeed "that's not tradtional" really don't have a place here either.

All of us are "modern" kilt wearers, when or not we are copying the way some of ancestors wore kilts before, but we are not them, our ideas and our way of life is different, not better especially . but different.

some thoughts about how i wear my kilts

I wear kilts that are tradtionally made with 8 yds tartan, knife pleats, leather straps and metal buckles, with stabliser and hair interfacing, lined with cotton or silk, and almost entirely hand sewn, this I think is one of the most traditional style of kilts, and I don't imagine even the staunchest of tradtionalist could argue with that, I wear those kilts often with a shirt , tie and a jacket,sporran, long hose,with plain flashes, and generallly black shiny shoes, that to mean is a very tradtional and smart attire, and it is often my "smart"

I also wear exactly the same kilt with a casual open shirt, pushed down walking socks and heavy shoes or boots, and a casual jacket or sweater, so nothing has changed with the actual kilt, but just what I put with it, to me that's still a fairly traditional way of wearing it, but perahps it might be thought of a more"modern" way of wearing a kilt.


I also wear machine sewn cotton/linen/denim/camo kilts about 5 yards, sometimes with pockets, and these I wear fairly casually with boots and scrunched socks and open shirts or t shirts.


Sometimes it is possible that there is overlap between these groups, but I choose to wear my kilts depending on where I am going, or what I am doing, the situation goes a long way to determining which kilt i pull from the wardrobe.


A final thought about what should be in here, almost anything kilt related, that isn't especially strongly traditional,so discussion about the value of sherrifmuirs, jabots, buckle shoes and the like probably are better somewhere else!

[kiltedwolfman]

I would suggest that the moment a person puts a tie and jacket on they cease to be tradtional and instantly become modern! I find it hard to believe that the ancient highlanders were mucking about the heather with a jacket, waistcoat and tie. Those types of clothes are stricktly modern inventions for either formality or a higher level of day wear.

The picture of Paulhenry above on what appears to be a pier would to me suggest about as traditional a look as one could get if you are thinking about how your Scottish ancestry from the Highlands prior to the mid 1700's would have worn thier clothing.

Perhaps this sub forum should be renamed to read " Kilts as they are worn today" this way those that prefer a more historically ( if somewhat recent as far as the measure of time goes ) can still have thier spot in the traditional section and the rest of us can post here.

Having labels of traditional or modern stir up far too much silt in my oppinion as realistically all traditions are modern inventions and all modern inovations are simply new traditions waiting on the justification of time.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Just my opinion here and nothing more. Steve, I would describe what you are wearing in that photo with Nick as traditional. Yes, you are wearing modern shoes and a modern sporran and a modern shirt, etc. But so what? "Traditional" does not mean the same as "Historic."

It is a very traditional thing to wear the kilt with the contemporary style of shirt, shoes, etc. After all, the kilt is a contemporary and living form of national dress, it is not a costume or a museum relic that must be done in the style of a particular era. The kilt is just as much a part of 21st century Scottish attire as it is 18th century Scottish attire.

And I know you know all of that, I'm just putting it out there to show where I'm getting my take on things. I would even call your kilt fairly traditional inasmuch as it is a woolen kilt, made from tartan cloth, in the style of a traditional Scottish kilt. The pockets, after all, are pretty much hidden, unlike the big cargo pockets on the utilikilt.

I make a demarkation between this and what I might call a "modern" or "contemporary" style kilt, by which I mean any kilt-like garment that did not develop in the line of Scottish tradition. So that would be utilikilts and other such "male unbifurcated garments" which were designed and developed quite independantly of the Scottish tradition.

[Alan H]

Don't forget that for some of us, "It's ALL good!!"

I'm perfectly comfortable in feileadh mor or feileadh beag with 1740s jacket & waistcoat, shirt, neck stock, dirk, buckled shoes, etc.

I'm equally comfortable in a contemporary tailored to measure handmade tartan kilt and Harris Tweed Argyle jacket & waistcoat, tie, sgian dubh, etc.

Or hiking the hills in a safari shirt and a Buzz Kidder canvas kilt or a Stillwater acrylic with a SWK nylon cargo sporran. Perhaps with a leather bomber jacket or a good wool commando sweater if it's a windy/chilly day.

I love it all.

Yeah. Makes two of us.

[Alan H]

Just my opinion here and nothing more. Steve, I would describe what you are wearing in that photo with Nick as traditional. Yes, you are wearing modern shoes and a modern sporran and a modern shirt, etc. But so what? "Traditional" does not mean the same as "Historic."

It is a very traditional thing to wear the kilt with the contemporary style of shirt, shoes, etc. After all, the kilt is a contemporary and living form of national dress, it is not a costume or a museum relic that must be done in the style of a particular era. The kilt is just as much a part of 21st century Scottish attire as it is 18th century Scottish attire.

And I know you know all of that, I'm just putting it out there to show where I'm getting my take on things. I would even call your kilt fairly traditional inasmuch as it is a woolen kilt, made from tartan cloth, in the style of a traditional Scottish kilt. The pockets, after all, are pretty much hidden, unlike the big cargo pockets on the utilikilt.

I make a demarkation between this and what I might call a "modern" or "contemporary" style kilt, by which I mean any kilt-like garment that did not develop in the line of Scottish tradition. So that would be utilikilts and other such "male unbifurcated garments" which were designed and developed quite independantly of the Scottish tradition.

I tend to think of things more along these lines, myself.

Steve, your X Marks kilt with pockets (and remember, I've SEEN that kilt! I even borrowed it from you to show to someone at a Nor Cal Beer Night as an example of a first class bit of kit) is of course not entirely traditional. However, it's inspiration and basic contruction sure is!

Seems like we have a diversity of opinion here! This is to the good, IMHO.