Why this forum has so little activity compared to....

[Alan H]

...the Traditional Kilt sub-forum.

Monkey@Arms and I were talking about this a long time ago and I think he hit the nail on the head. With a contemporary kilt like a UK, an Amerikilt, an X-Kilt or what-have you...you just strap the thing on, pick out whatever shoes you like, grab a shirt and go about your business. There aren't endless details of minutiae about buttons and jacket length and the weave of your socks and overarching tradition to be concerned with.

So in the end, what's to talk about? Buy it or make it, put it on, and carry on with your life. About the only thing to talk about is what kind of boots you like...or is it crocs this week, or what?

[beloitpiper]

I think you got it, but also, a LOT more people wear traditional kilts. There just isn't the following like there is for traditional kilts.

[ohiopiper]

I think part of the reason most people wear traditional kilts is the design of some of the modern kilts. They tend to blur the line (some makers, not all) between a kilt and a skirt. Most guys who wear a kilt want one that readily identifies as a kilt.

Just one mans opinion.

[Whidbey78]

I remember a thread you started a year or more back, Alan, about how the complexion of the forum had shifted from a fairly equal mix of modern and traditional to a much more traditional bent. I was actually thinking about that the other day as I was browsing around the active discussions. I lurked the site for nearly a year gathering info for my own use, and joined in last March, and I have seen that shift as well. There was little talk about contemporary kilts, or even wearing tartan kilts in a modern way, back then. Today, there is almost none beyond an occasional post showing off a new X-Kilt, and they seem to peter out after a day. At the same time, a simple question about square buttons or some other minutia winds up going on for a week.

Really, I'm not sure that there are so few people wearing modern kilts--though I would concede that traditional kilts are more common--but, as you posted, more that there aren't any "rules," traditions, yada yada yada that go with it. There isn't much to talk about along those lines, and that's what dominates much of the discussion on here. If anything goes, what's to debate? Should I wear this shirt or that one? Doesn't matter. Do what you want. So, if there isn't something to talk about, nobody will show up to talk about it. Beside that, I think a fairly large portion of people wearing contemporary kilts are going to be found elsewhere. People go where they feel they fit, and in many of those cases this isn't it.

Even the construction of modern kilts borrows a lot of methods and ideas from traditional kilts, so when I have a question I just go looking thought the tips and such--most of them about traditional kilts of course--and I usually find my answer. It's all been covered in that arena, and I can figure out how to apply it to what I'm making, so there is no need to bring it up.

While I do dabble in the traditional, even my tartan kilts are worn in a modern manner most of the time(about 98%). When I do get dressed up I try to do it fairly well, though it's more of a nod to tradition than full-on traditional. The rest of the time it's boots, hikers, t-shirts, plain ol' Wal-Mart socks, etc. I think most people who kinda know me here are aware of that, the others figure it out pretty quickly. There's no point bringing up much on the contemporary side. Nobody really has much to say because the bulk of the discussion is traditional dress, and many(but not all) are staunch traditionalists.

When an interesting topic does come up it often gets mired in talk about what's proper, what some guy who died 150 years ago wore to some royal shindig that I've never heard of and couldn't care less about. I've just stayed out of those, though I do read them and subscribe to the thread. Sometimes I see something that sparks an idea in my mind, and that's about the only reason I watch them. Generally, if I've left a comment it's probably in the first two or three pages, before it turns into ten pages of banter about what people wore way back when, or why this thing is better than that, or why a converted eton jacket is inferior to...oops, sorry Alan. (I've been thinking about getting one just so I have it if it's needed since I can't see the point of spending a fortune for something that may get used twice in the next three years. And it was a thread I found during a search for info that you posted years ago that got me thinking about it.) Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against thread drift. That's how conversations in real life work, but it's pretty predictable around here:

OP: My wife made these hose for me. Pretty cool,huh?
Some guy: I like. Can she make me a pair? (There will be a page or two of these types of replies)
Other guy 1: Nice knitting work. The design on the top isn't traditional, but I like it.
Other guy 2: The shade of blue she used wasn't available until 1963, so it shouldn't be worn with that tartan because the MacSuchandsuch Highlanders stopped using it in 1928 and went back to the Government Sett.
Other guy 3: I have a picture of Col. MacBigshot of the Kikinass Regiment wearing something similar when he met the Grand Poobah of Bookabooka Island in 1887. (Nevermind that it's black and white and he could be wearing hot pink for all we know)
And then it turns into a discussion about regimental hose, what goes with what uniform, what to wear in India after Labor Day, and the OP hit's the "unsubscribe" button on his own thread.

Crap. Now I'm drifting off topic! Oh well! Pent up frustration I guess. My point is, other than a heads up on a good modern kilt maker that just started up or a source for good materials for us DIY guys, there isn't much to do except post pics once in a while. Even those don't get much response and die off in 24 hours.

I guess when it comes to modern kilts and even wearing traditional kilts in modern ways, we're just flying so low that we have dropped off the X-Marks radar. Once in a while a poly-cotton or hemp blip shows up on the scope, but disappears just as quickly as it appeared. Basically, even if something is brought up on the subject it gets drowned in the traditional discussions and vanishes into obscurity and can only be located with a lengthy search and maybe help from the Mentalist. I just did a search for "X-Kilt" and the results are telling. Here is what was on page 1 of the results:

*2 threads about the Cthulhu tartan(where someone mentioned making an x-kilt from it)
*4 in Kilt Advice (again, someone suggested an x-kilt because the OP wanted camo and such)
*1 thread in Craigs Corner, a few in General Kilt Talk, and Modern Kilt Wear (still, just where someone mentions it) The top of the list was , of course, this thread.
All this is expected, but what really shows the general preferences is the 10 threads in DIY Showroom and DIY Help forums.
*6 threads in the DIY Showroom, one had 10 replies with 281 views, another had seven with 237 views and one had two, TWO replies with 226 views. One of the threads has two replies from ME--bringing the total for that one to three.
*4 in the DIY Help forum, one of which had 265 views and four replies.

The thing is, most of these threads were started this month, I'm on this forum 3-4 times a day everyday, and until I searched I hadn't seen most of these threads because they get looked at a couple of hundred times, two people take the time to type "Nice job" and then it quicly moves down the Recent Threads list until it disappears. Unless someone goes looking for it they never find it. Obviously, nobody is looking for them either, otherwise there would be more activity than 226 views and two replies. I guess only a handful of us care about contemporary kilts and that's what happens when you're in the minority.

These two threads really show how it's changed:
This one is from a bit over three years ago--about a year before I started lurking here, and I've had this thread bookmarked since day one because I have used the pics repeatedly for inspiration and ideas. Look at the replies--7 pages of them.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ll-kilt-35755/
This one is from two years later, and is about the best thread on the topic I could find without going back further. In it, the above thread is linked twice. What ever happened with this guy's idea? Dunno. This was one of the last contemporary kilt threads that involved an original idea and got more than 12 or so replies. Probably, the OP lost interest in the project...and it's easy to do if nobody else seems too interested.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-outfit-57506/
Today, they flicker and fizzle in a day. So it goes.

The above statement about original ideas is one thing that has really become a burr under my saddle. Someone can post a pair of flashes that took 15 minutes to make with seam tape and an iron and get 60 responses but a DIY kilt (unless it's tartan) gets three or four. Even if it's not your thing, at least let the guy know he did a good job--hell, if you think it looks like crap at least take the time to tell him you hope the next one comes out better because this one wasn't really that great. If you know something that could help him out speak up. You don't even have to type...click on one of the smilies, even if it's the one that looks like he's about to vomit. It's not even so much that they only get two or three replies...two hundred or more will look and don't figure it warrants any acknowledgement, but will go on to write two paragraphs praising someone who made a phone call, placed an order and waited patiently for the UPS guy to deliver a kilt to his doorstep. In my mind that's like turning your nose up to the carpenter who did the work, and then showering praise on the guy who hired him for the house that he "built." And doing it right in front of him. Most of the posts I found for DIY kilts (going back over a year) were the person's first attempt at making something like this and sometimes a first attempt at making anything, which means they tried something new, took a chance, expanded their horizons, learned something, accomplished something, and all they get for that effort is someone looking at the picture and clicking the back button. As I went through the pages of search results and looked at the DIY Showroom threads I also noted that most were from someone who had very recently joined the forum. They put up the pic, a couple of people comment, and the thread and the new member are never seen again. On about half of them the last activity on their account was within a week or two of posting their work. They probably kept checking to see if anyone gave a d@mn that they did something only to find 125 replies to a question about whether it's okay to wear a flower on your lapel when kilted even though one reply is enough to answer a simple question like that. I guess if I had gotten a lukewarm welcome and the sound of crickets when I showed off something I put time and work into I wouldn't have stuck around either. A year or two ago it wasn't like that so much. It's sad that it has gotten like that, but that's just what's happened. I know a lot of people join and quickly lose interest, but I think the response they're getting has a lot to do with it. Also, I realize that I didn't reply to the vast majority of those threads I referred to above(mainly because I never saw them) but from here on I'm making it a point to check those specific forums often instead of just seeing what's active on the home page, and let those guys know that someone sees the good in what they're doing and that they shouldn't feel unwelcome here even though often only one or two people out of a few hundred reply, and others don't even look. In a nutshell, I'd rather be part of the solution, even if I'm the only one.

Right now I'm working on my 13th DIY kilt to date. The only one I posted a pic of is one where a customer of mine took the photo while I was working, and that was only to bounce around an idea that she had--to do my kitchen installations kilted as a sort of trademark. I don't post much in the DIY sections because unless it's traditional nobody seems to give a...nevermind.

Another good indicator of the environment here: I have a neighbor/friend who is interested in kilts, contemporary kilts specifically, but doesn't have one yet. He started lurking the forum and opted not to join because there is no discussion about his interests and even noticed very quickly that the little bit of discussion about contemporary styles goes nowhere. So, there's one soon-to-be kiltie who passed it by, but is still getting kilted up for the first time (at the age of 62) a few days from now when he takes his grandkids to Six Flags (if I can get it finished by then). Now, I'm going to get back to work on this desert camo rev-k kilt that I promised him in exchange for calculus tutoring--or more accurately, saving my butt!

Sorry for kinda jacking your thread Alan, but it seemed the best place to vent. I do feel better now!

[artificer]

.....

Sorry for kinda jacking your thread Alan, but it seemed the best place to vent. I do feel better now!

Sorry, Whidbey, but with all of the "talking about how someone historical wore something"s re: traditional kilts you've made a very good argument for WHY traditional kilt discussions go on for much longer than modern kilt discussions:

History and variety.

There IS something to talk about.

Add in hose, sporran, kilt pin (maybe) the tartan itself, pleating style, etc and a thread CAN go on for quite a long time.

I could argue that this is the way EVERY boring and short conversation about modern kilts goes:

Cool kilt.
Thank you.
Is that denim? canvas?
No, it's hemp.
Cool. I see you're wearing it with socks and boots and a t-shirt- looks neat.
Thanks.
End of thread.

No stripes to align, no sporran to discuss, no "which mill, which weight", yardage, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I DO like the idea of modern kilts. In fact when I started lurking here 1.5 yrs ago, it was to find a good modern kilt. I still like the idea of a modern kilt. But there is a WHOLE lot more to discuss about traditional kilts.

Some very talented board members make GREAT modern kilts, but again, there is little in the way of "extras" to talk about. Many people don't even wear a sporran with modern kilts!

Just my $0.02

[Tobus]

I believe you're absolutely right, Alan. Traditional kilts have all kinds of "rules" associated with them (whether they're actually traditional guidelines or just myths), and people tend to want to discuss them ad nauseam. This is good, in its own way, because it means people are making a real effort to wear it correctly and pay homage to tradition.

Modern kilts simply don't have those sorts of rules associated with them. So there's not much to debate. I wear my UK for hiking, working, or anything else I want to do, and while I do have my own sense of what "looks right" with it, it's purely my own sense of style and there isn't any reason to ask the "experts" whether I'm doing it right or not.

But I think that there are also a couple of other reasons the modern kilt wear forum sees less traffic:

- Modern kilts are frowned upon by some folks, or they just aren't interested in them. So as a percentage of the total membership, modern kilt-wearers are probably the minority.

- A lot of modern kilt discussions get placed elsewhere on the board and mixed in with other discussions.

- There simply isn't as much variety in modern kilts as there is in traditional kilts. They pretty much come in plain colors, without the fuss over tartan choices or whether to pleat to the stripe/sett/etc.

[Chas]

I am sure I am not the only one of the members who thinks that contemporary or modern kilts aren't really kilts. Kilt-like maybe and at a quick glance could be mistaken for a kilt, but not a real kilt.

There are many reasons for this did-belief - too few pleats, pleats too wide, pleats come too far forward round the front, too long or too short, front panel far too narrow and looks like a pleat, not a tartan fabric and finally, the one that is the biggest turn-off for me, they tend to flair out at the bottom, making them look like a skirt.

I know that we do not have an official definition of a kilt, but if you alter all the things that are perceived to make up a kilt, in the end, do you have a kilt?

And that is my reason for not spending much time on these threads.

Regards

Chas

[BEEDEE]

Well, we could always bring back a discussion on the merits of "Pink Death"! http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...18/#post398809

Brian

[Spartan Tartan]

OP: My wife made these hose for me. Pretty cool,huh?
Some guy: I like. Can she make me a pair? (There will be a page or two of these types of replies)
Other guy 1: Nice knitting work. The design on the top isn't traditional, but I like it.
Other guy 2: The shade of blue she used wasn't available until 1963, so it shouldn't be worn with that tartan because the MacSuchandsuch Highlanders stopped using it in 1928 and went back to the Government Sett.
Other guy 3: I have a picture of Col. MacBigshot of the Kikinass Regiment wearing something similar when he met the Grand Poobah of Bookabooka Island in 1887. (Nevermind that it's black and white and he could be wearing hot pink for all we know)
And then it turns into a discussion about regimental hose, what goes with what uniform, what to wear in India after Labor Day, and the OP hit's the "unsubscribe" button on his own thread.

This is easily the single greatest post I've seen here in 6 months! I litterally laughed my butt off as I read your fake thread! It does capture EXACTLY the way threads go. My hat (and yes, it's a flatcap) is seriously off to you! Awesome.

[kiltedwolfman]

I often find it odd when then traditionalists off up a good bit of "shunning" to the modern version of the kilt. Especially when the traditional version itself is a relatively modern creation bearing little semblance to the orginal garment. Everything at some point or another is/was new and scorned when compared to whatever original item that gave the new items creator the desire to experiement, and be creative.
I have traditionale kilts and I have modern kilts but I find no reason to ever make a real distinction between the two. To me regardless of style they are simply kilts, nothing more and nothing less and I don't tend to feel the need to change modes of dress based on whatever style of kilt I am wearing.

MY turn to thread jack now!! hehe

At a recent Highland games I was speaking to a fellow from Scotland and who was also a devout traditionalist. At least in the sence of following traditions he was taught as the ones he was espousing made little sence to me ( but that' another story) During our conversation I asked him why he thought that a garment that was once simply a utilitarion all around piece of clothing carrying no more sentiment than a pair of socks was somehow through time transformed into a special occasion, super nationalistic, wear it only during the greatest of occasions, ( or out fishing ) article? He had no answer or hypothesis but to his credit did say it was a good question and after thinking about it supposed a kilt could be worn for other things. My point to him was this. If you can wear the kilt proudly to special occasions then you should wear it proudly everyday as everyday should be viewed as a special occasion.

Back to the OP's topic.

People seem to talk less about "modern" style kilts as either there isn't as much to say, or the conversations often degenerate into silly arguments, that while fun to read and maybe stir up a little get the orginal point nowhere. If there could be a long running thread about modern kilt and kilt wear that didn't fall back to people taking sides over which was better, or proper, or yadda yadda yadday, it would truly be amazing.