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  1. #1
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    Armigerous Clans

    In another thread it was talked about that an armigerous clan was one that had no chief. Of course having no chief, the clan was therefore broken. Someone had mentioned that all clans are armigerous. I don't don't know if that was in jest or not but I do know for fact that Clan Cochrane can trace the line of chiefs unbroken to present day. Ending with the currently alive and well Hereditary Clan chief, The right Honorable Iain Alexander Douglas Blair Cochrane,
    The 15th Earl of Dundonald. I'm not meaning to be argumentative but I don't think all clans are Armigerous.
    - Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves
    -[URL="http://www.clancochrane.org/"]http://www.clancochrane.org/[/URL]

  2. #2
    Twa_Corbies is offline Membership Revoked for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldathart View Post
    In another thread it was talked about that an armigerous clan was one that had no chief. Of course having no chief, the clan was therefore broken. Someone had mentioned that all clans are armigerous. I don't don't know if that was in jest or not but I do know for fact that Clan Cochrane can trace the line of chiefs unbroken to present day. Ending with the currently alive and well Hereditary Clan chief, The right Honorable Iain Alexander Douglas Blair Cochrane,
    The 15th Earl of Dundonald. I'm not meaning to be argumentative but I don't think all clans are Armigerous.
    Armigerous means "having arms" that is to say a coat of arms. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Chiefship of a Clan is dormant or vacant. The word "Clan" is from the Gaelic term Clann, meaning "offspring". I believe that the general rule of thumb is that clans are family groups having been "received" by the monarchy, that is that they are "noble" (meaning "known" to the Crown) by virtue of the fact that the herditary arms are recorded by the Lord Lyon as a representative of the Crown. So, to be a Clan, a family is required to be armigerous, and thus having been received and acknowledged by the monarchy.

  3. #3
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    Oooooh Ok thanks for educating me I guess I missread what was being said. My apologies
    - Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves
    -[URL="http://www.clancochrane.org/"]http://www.clancochrane.org/[/URL]

  4. #4
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    I saw that... discussion too, and thought it was bizarre.
    I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
    Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twa_Corbies View Post
    Armigerous means "having arms" that is to say a coat of arms. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Chiefship of a Clan is dormant or vacant. The word "Clan" is from the Gaelic term Clann, meaning "offspring". I believe that the general rule of thumb is that clans are family groups having been "received" by the monarchy, that is that they are "noble" (meaning "known" to the Crown) by virtue of the fact that the herditary arms are recorded by the Lord Lyon as a representative of the Crown. So, to be a Clan, a family is required to be armigerous, and thus having been received and acknowledged by the monarchy.
    I am sorry to have to correct you, but "clans" can not be armigerous due to the simple fact that generally arms are only be awarded to an individual. A clan or family society may apply for arms in the same way a corporation, a town, or a school may apply for arms. These are corporate arms, and different from the undifferenced arms of a clan chief which descend to each successive clan chief, the crest of which is worn within a strap and buckle as the mark of a clansman.

    When the chiefly line dies out, and the lawful successor can not be found, the office of chief is held to be in abeyance, and clansmen continue to wear the crest of the last known chief as a badge within the buckle and strap.

    The clan can not appropriate the chiefly arms to itself, as these are the property of someone else, ie: the rightful claimant to the chiefship of the clan. In this instance a clan society, if such exists, may petition for a grant of arms. Should arms be granted they are the property of the society, and may not be used by any single individual who is a member of that society, except perhaps, as "arms of office".

    A chief must be armigerous. Individual clansmen may be armigerous. But the "clan" can never be armigerous.

  6. #6
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    Ah! The whole discussion makes sense now. I'll have to go find that thread and see who was correct.

    The rest of the information is very interesting in regard to groups etc having arms, though of a differen type.

    * Nope! I looked up that thread, and this is why the discussion was bizarre, both sides of that discussion were wrong going by MacMillan of Rathdown's information. *
    Last edited by Bugbear; 15th March 09 at 12:01 AM.
    I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
    Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…

  7. #7
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    Article on armigerous clans on wiki here:-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armigerous_clan
    An armigerous clan refers to a Scottish clan, family or name which is registered with the Court of the Lord Lyon and once had a chief who bore undifferenced arms, but does not have a chief currently recognised as such by Lyon Court. Before 1745 all chiefs had arms, however not all of these are recorded in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland, which was only established in 1672. In Scottish heraldry undifferenced arms are only held by chiefs or heads of clans, families or names. A clan is considered a "noble incorporation" because a clan chief is a title of honour in Scotland and the chief confers his or her noble status onto the clan. Because armigerous clans do not have such chiefs, they are not recognised as noble communities and have no legal standing under Scots law.

  8. #8
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    I'm going to fire off a email to my clan chief about the subject and see what he says. I'm sure the office of the Lord Lyon would be more than happy to weigh in. Interesting subject. My curiosity is piqued now
    - Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves
    -[URL="http://www.clancochrane.org/"]http://www.clancochrane.org/[/URL]

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cessna152towser View Post
    Article on armigerous clans on wiki here:-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armigerous_clan
    The Wikipedia article made no sense to me the first time I read it and make even less now. It would make sense if the article were to be called Non-Armigerous Clans, but why not just call them Chiefless or Headless Clans. All the references deal with Chiefs, Clans and Families, but there is no reference to "Armigerous".

    Regards

    Chas
    Regards
    Chas

  10. #10
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    WIKIPEDIA is sooo WRONG!

    Quote Originally Posted by cessna152towser View Post
    Article on armigerous clans on wiki here:-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armigerous_clan
    Well, the above quote from wikipedia is just garbage.

    Folks, when it comes to Scottish heraldry, do yourself a favour. Don't rely on Wikipedia; get one of the following books:

    Scotland's Heraldic Heritage by Charles J. Burnett and Mark D. Dennis
    Scots Heraldry by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney
    Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia by Geo. Way of Plean and Romilly Squire;
    Scottish Heraldry Made Easy by G. Harvey Johnston
    Simple Heraldry by Sir Iain Moncrieff of that Ilk and Don Pottenger

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