[RadioKen]

Hello all!

I have a question about what appears to be at least two variants of the Black Watch tartan.

My understanding is that the standard Clan Campbell tartan and the Black Watch (or "Government Sett" or "42nd Regt.") are one in the same. It's ITI number is 1. There is also a Black Watch tartan that is ITI number 207. It's alternative name is "42nd Regt. Government Tartan No. 2". When I compare these two tartans using the Tartan Ferret, my (admittedly untrained) eye tells me that they're very similar but not exactly the same. When I start looking at the details of the sett, however, and comparing the placement of the colors and the location and size of the various stripes, suddenly I can't figure out HOW they're different.

Can anyone tell me how these two variants differ, or if they actually DO differ? I ask because I'm thinking of getting a Clan Campbell tartan and I wasn't sure if I needed to be careful between these two apparent Black Watch versions.

Thanks!
~Ken

[Tattoo Bradley]

Matt Newsome is a great source for all things tartan, being that it's his job and all.
Read his article here on the subject of the Black Watch/ Campbell tartan.

[sirdaniel1975]

This topic came up once before regarding the tartan that Frugal Corner sells as Black Watch. The Black Watch tartan in use has an alternating pattern of double black stripes, where the 42nd version has a repeating sett of double black stripes.


The above diagram displays the Black Watch tartan.


The above is the 42nd Highlanders version. It has the single sett of double repeating black stripes.

[RadioKen]

Originally Posted by sirdaniel1975

This topic came up once before regarding the tartan that Frugal Corner sells as Black Watch. The Black Watch tartan in use has an alternating pattern of double black stripes, where the 42nd version has a repeating sett of double black stripes.

Okay, I get that. I can see the difference in the examples you provided. But looking again at the Tartan Ferret, I can see that ITI #1 (Campbell Clan) and ITI #207 (Black Watch, aka 42nd Regt. Government No. 2) BOTH have the characteristic alternating pattern of double black stripes. But still there's some about the two that continues to elude me. I thought that it might simply be the color that the Tartan Ferret generates for each, but after looking at each one I'm pretty sure that there's something beyond that.

Thanks for those illustrations, by the way. They were very helpful for clarification.

~Ken

[sirdaniel1975]

Originally Posted by RadioKen

Okay, I get that. I can see the difference in the examples you provided. But looking again at the Tartan Ferret, I can see that ITI #1 (Campbell Clan) and ITI #207 (Black Watch, aka 42nd Regt. Government No. 2) BOTH have the characteristic alternating pattern of double black stripes. But still there's some about the two that continues to elude me. I thought that it might simply be the color that the Tartan Ferret generates for each, but after looking at each one I'm pretty sure that there's something beyond that.

Thanks for those illustrations, by the way. They were very helpful for clarification.

~Ken

The 42nd government tartan should be listed under the name Sutherland.

[Morris at Heathfield]

I hope the Scottish Tartans Authority doesn't mind, but I did a little reverse engineering for you:

Campbell ITI 1
B: #345064
G: #5c6428
K: #101010
B28 K6 B6 K6 B6 K32 G32 K6 G32 K32 B32 K6 B6

Black Watch ITI 207
B: #202060
G: #006818
K: #101010
B44 K4 B4 K4 B4 K32 G32 K4 G32 K32 B32 K4 B4

So, apart from the different shades of blue and green, the black "tramlines" on the Campbell are thicker than on the Black Watch. Note that this is only the STA's opinion on the matter. I assume both ITI 1 and ITI 207 are derived from actual woven samples, and woven samples can and have varied over the past, especially in a tartan as commonly used as the Government sett.

Here is the Campbell sett approved by MacCailein Mor, according to Alistair Campbell of Airds:

B24 K4 B4 K4 B4 K20 G24 K6 G24 K20 B22 K4 B4

Very similar, but here the black stripe on the green square is thicker than the black stripes on the blue squares.

Whether the textile weavers use any of these setts is another matter altogether. There is at least one major Scottish woollen mill that weaves the Campbell tartan so that the blue squares which contain the tramlines crossing in the center are smaller than the blue squares which contain the tramlines all crossing at the edges, and the blue squares which contain one pair of tramlines in the center crossed by two pairs of tramlines at the edges are all rectangular! I don't much care for it.

[RadioKen]

Originally Posted by Morris of Heathfield

I hope the Scottish Tartans Authority doesn't mind, but I did a little reverse engineering for you:
[Snipped for brevity]
So, apart from the different shades of blue and green, the black "tramlines" on the Campbell are thicker than on the Black Watch. Note that this is only the STA's opinion on the matter. I assume both ITI 1 and ITI 207 are derived from actual woven samples, and woven samples can and have varied over the past, especially in a tartan as commonly used as the Government sett.

Ah, HA!! I think that must be it. My eye was seeing that SOMEthing was different, but I didn't have enough "tartan-smarts" to figure it out. [Side note: I'd really like to remedy that some day and become, if not exactly tartan-smart, at least not so much of a tartan-idiot. Hmmm...Matt have you ever thought about a "Tartan For Dummies" book?]

I appreciate your help in the matter MofH, and apologize for the delay in my response to this.

~Ken

[Splash_4]

This is a great thread and it ties into a book I am reading right now...

"The Origins and Development of Military Tartans, A Re-Appraisal" by James D Scarlett. Matt recommended this book two weeks ago and it is a fascinating study of the evolution of the various military tartans.

[BEEDEE]

Originally Posted by Splash_4

This is a great thread and it ties into a book I am reading right now...

"The Origins and Development of Military Tartans, A Re-Appraisal" by James D Scarlett. Matt recommended this book two weeks ago and it is a fascinating study of the evolution of the various military tartans.

Where did you find the book? I've been looking for that one for some time.

Brian

[Splash_4]

I ordered it from http://caliverbooks.com/bookview.php...89090c&id=3710

It was a mite pricey, but well worth the read. His conclusions on how the 'dark' tartans started is something I have not heard before and would be a great disappointment to the Campbell clan.