[Bluescelt]

I had a discussion with a clan member the other day about protocol for clan flags at a highland games. During the American National Anthem some of the clans tilted their flags to horizonal and some did not. Also, when trooping by the American flag does the same apply? Does anyone know the accepted protocol for this and is it written anywhere? I've searched and can't find anything in writing on this. It always looks better to see a unified response during ceremonies and to follow protocol according to any heraldic or national codes of conduct appropriate to the situation.

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by Bluescelt

I had a discussion with a clan member the other day about protocol for clan flags at a highland games. During the American National Anthem some of the clans tilted their flags to horizonal and some did not. Also, when trooping by the American flag does the same apply? Does anyone know the accepted protocol for this and is it written anywhere? I've searched and can't find anything in writing on this. It always looks better to see a unified response during ceremonies and to follow protocol according to any heraldic or national codes of conduct appropriate to the situation.

That's an excellent question. I would think the US Flag Code would be the standard to follow for games/festivals/etc. in the United States. Sec. 8 states:

Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

-- http://suvcw.org/flag.htm

I would think that a clan society banner comes under the catagory of an organization/institutional flag.

Regards,

Todd

[HeathBar]

Since clan flags are not official flags, I doubt you will see any protocal listed for them. The only thing I have heard of regarding "dipping" clan flags is during a parade of tartans, the clan flag would be "dipped" when passing in review before the chief of the games. Of course this is all ceremonial and no one would think twice if they didn't.

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by HeathBar

Since clan flags are not official flags, I doubt you will see any protocal listed for them. The only thing I have heard of regarding "dipping" clan flags is during a parade of tartans, the clan flag would be "dipped" when passing in review before the chief of the games. Of course this is all ceremonial and no one would think twice if they didn't.

See my post above regarding the US Flag Code. I would respectfully disagree that clan flags are not "official", because some are official. I'm not talking about tartan banners per se, but rather banners depticting the clansman's badge and/ones that represent the Chief, such as the Gonfanon or the Pinsel:

http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/flyingherald2.html

Since these banners are flown to represent the Chief of a Clan (though not present), then they are official.

Still, I think all clan banners should be dipped out of respect, tartan or not. If anything, it shows that while we are proud of heritage, we are American citizens first.

Regards,

Todd

[HeathBar]

Originally Posted by cajunscot

I would think that a clan society banner comes under the catagory of an organization/institutional flag.

If a clan society could agree on an official banner to represent the clan and everyone would agree to use it, then I could see the above statement being valid.

I guess it would be up to the person holding the flag as to whether or not they dip it. When I started convening a clan tent, I was not given instructions about how to display flags or when to dip them and when not to. I do not fly any national flags at my tent. There is protocal for how to fly them and sometimes its just not practical to do so at a clan tent. I see too many flown improperly, I wouldn't want mine added to the bunch.

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by HeathBar

If a clan society could agree on an official banner to represent the clan and everyone would agree to use it, then I could see the above statement being valid.

That's a very good point. Some clan societies do have a "standardized" banner, such as the black Lion Rampant of the Buchanans, but others do not.

I guess it would be up to the person holding the flag as to whether or not they dip it. When I started convening a clan tent, I was not given instructions about how to display flags or when to dip them and when not to. I do not fly any national flags at my tent. There is protocal for how to fly them and sometimes its just not practical to do so at a clan tent. I see too many flown improperly, I wouldn't want mine added to the bunch.

I tend to follow the logic that "less is more" as well when it comes to flags displayed at my clan tent. Of course, I think the question here refers more to a parade of clans type ceremony, where a colour party with the national colours are present.

T.

[HeathBar]

Originally Posted by cajunscot

See my post above regarding the US Flag Code. I would respectfully disagree that clan flags are not "official", because some are official. I'm not talking about tartan banners per se, but rather banners depticting the clansman's badge and/ones that represent the Chief, such as the Gonfanon or the Pinsel:

http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/flyingherald2.html

Since these banners are flown to represent the Chief of a Clan (though not present), then they are official.

Still, I think all clan banners should be dipped out of respect, tartan or not. If anything, it shows that while we are proud of heritage, we are American citizens first.

Regards,

Todd

I guess I was thinking of tartan banners only, not heraldic flags. I was not aware of any dipping until I attend the Glasgow games and the announcer during the parade of tartans discussed the tradtion of dipping the flag before the chief of the games as a sign of respect. I can't think of an instance where we've paraded before the US flag, so I can't speak to that.

I am trying to put together a set of convening instructions for new conveners. One of the pieces I would like to add is flag protocol. I will try to add something about customs of dipping the clan flags during parades as a sign of respect. I only wish I had something like this when I started.

[Bluescelt]

At some of the games I attend there is an honor guard that would be positioned next to the podium that we troop by when leaving the field. I always dip my tartan when passing out of respect. I was surprised when I checked on the COSCA site that there was no mention of any standard practices agreed upon by their council. Seems to me that it would be something they would be involved with.

[EagleJCS]

I think, by definition, almost anything 'flown' from a staff can be considered a flag. (According to my American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, a flag is: "A piece of cloth of distinctive color and design, used as a symbol, signal, or emblem.") So, put a bit of tartan - which is of distinctive color and design, and by general agreement used as a symbol of a clan* - on a stick/pole/staff and you have yourself a clan flag. Whether it's a gonfanon, guidon, pennon, pinsel, standard, or corporate/institution/clan/whatever flag is a matter of clarification/categorization by the vexillologists (flag experts).

Since it's a flag, IMHO it should be dipped to respect the U.S. flag (when in the U.S., whether passing the U.S. flag, or being passed by the U.S. flag), and in respect to any honorees (like the chief of the Games). I would think anything off the vertical would be considered 'dipping', with about 45 deg. being the norm. Going fully horizontal is going a bit overboard.

*I'm not going into the historical/legal discussion here, it's been done to death elsewhere.

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by EagleJCS

I think, by definition, almost anything 'flown' from a staff can be considered a flag. (According to my American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, a flag is: "A piece of cloth of distinctive color and design, used as a symbol, signal, or emblem.") So, put a bit of tartan - which is of distinctive color and design, and by general agreement used as a symbol of a clan* - on a stick/pole/staff and you have yourself a clan flag. Whether it's a gonfanon, guidon, pennon, pinsel, standard, or corporate/institution/clan/whatever flag is a matter of clarification/categorization by the vexillologists (flag experts).

Since it's a flag, IMHO it should be dipped to respect the U.S. flag (when in the U.S., whether passing the U.S. flag, or being passed by the U.S. flag), and in respect to any honorees (like the chief of the Games). I would think anything off the vertical would be considered 'dipping', with about 45 deg. being the norm. Going fully horizontal is going a bit overboard.

*I'm not going into the historical/legal discussion here, it's been done to death elsewhere.

Spot on!

T.