[Mac Ghille Sheathanaich]

Greetings all, 9 October, 657amMST

Some of you are going to want to punch me out for this, but here goes anyhoo....

The concept of "Clan" is a Highland and Island thing. The Lowlanders and Borderers are not and never were Clans.

It stems from the time when Alba was invaded by the Irish. Gaelic Clans,(Clann=Family) who warred against the Picts, who were in situ in Alba at the time in the years following the Roman pull-out. The unification of the Irish Gaels and Picts came under the auspices of King Kenneth MacAlpin.

I am not stating that the Clan/Tribal society was not observed among the Lowlanders and Borderers. Those people and particularly the Borderers, had a similar societal structure, as has already been pointed out.

The Gaelic influence of Ireland has more to do with the evolution of Highland and Island Scottish Clans.

The evolution of Scotland as it is known now, is not from strictly a Gaelic influence. That was most prevalent in the Highlands and Islands, but there were other influences from the Continent, that had a larger impact regionally than the Irish Gaels did.

Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, French Normans, and not to be forgotten; the Sarmatians imported by the Romans from the steppes of central Asia.

These other invading cultures impacted the regions where they made their respective beach heads.

I think the concept of "Clan" as is generally applied to all Scots Families, comes from the time of Queen Victoria, and the lifting of the Disarming Act, which was imposed after Culloden.

When the Pommies figured out that the Scots weren't so bad after all,
( circa 1820's), and the spinners, weavers, and kiltmakers all went back to work én massé, tartans were indiscriminately designed and handed out to anyone who wanted one.

What ever original tartan patterns that were in existence before Culloden; most of which disappeared with the passing of a couple generations, when tartan was outlawed.

So having stated all that, I think that the modern mindset of "Clan" necessarily includes tartans, then it becomes a concept which is all encompassing as far as the modern non-Scottish idea of Scotland is concerned.

I'll be happy to be punched at now by all the Borderers out there who think they are part of Clans.

Fide et Fortitudine, aye!

Tim
Clan Shaw, ( Highland Clann from near Inverness)
Caldwell Idaho

[kiltedsawyer]

Originally Posted by Mac Ghille Sheathanaich

Greetings all, 9 October, 657amMST

Some of you are going to want to punch me out for this, but here goes anyhoo....

The concept of "Clan" is a Highland and Island thing. The Lowlanders and Borderers are not and never were Clans.

It stems from the time when Alba was invaded by the Irish. Gaelic Clans,(Clann=Family) who warred against the Picts, who were in situ in Alba at the time in the years following the Roman pull-out. The unification of the Irish Gaels and Picts came under the auspices of King Kenneth MacAlpin.

I am not stating that the Clan/Tribal society was not observed among the Lowlanders and Borderers. Those people and particularly the Borderers, had a similar societal structure, as has already been pointed out.

The Gaelic influence of Ireland has more to do with the evolution of Highland and Island Scottish Clans.

The evolution of Scotland as it is known now, is not from strictly a Gaelic influence. That was most prevalent in the Highlands and Islands, but there were other influences from the Continent, that had a larger impact regionally than the Irish Gaels did.

Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, French Normans, and not to be forgotten; the Sarmatians imported by the Romans from the steppes of central Asia.

These other invading cultures impacted the regions where they made their respective beach heads.

I think the concept of "Clan" as is generally applied to all Scots Families, comes from the time of Queen Victoria, and the lifting of the Disarming Act, which was imposed after Culloden.

When the Pommies figured out that the Scots weren't so bad after all,
( circa 1820's), and the spinners, weavers, and kiltmakers all went back to work én massé, tartans were indiscriminately designed and handed out to anyone who wanted one.

What ever original tartan patterns that were in existence before Culloden; most of which disappeared with the passing of a couple generations, when tartan was outlawed.

So having stated all that, I think that the modern mindset of "Clan" necessarily includes tartans, then it becomes a concept which is all encompassing as far as the modern non-Scottish idea of Scotland is concerned.

I'll be happy to be punched at now by all the Borderers out there who think they are part of Clans.

Fide et Fortitudine, aye!

Tim
Clan Shaw, ( Highland Clann from near Inverness)
Caldwell Idaho

Isn't this what I just said?

[Sawney Bean]

No it isn't.

[kiltedsawyer]

Well,.......except for the factual parts.

[Dall_Piobaire]

You know, I think both lines of thought are illuminating in that there is history and then His or Her story.

We always have to remain open to refutation of our most deeply held, and dearest ideas of what was what, how, and when. When facts are viewed solely as facts, and are supportable as facts, they can smash idyllic views of how we really wanted things to be. We want to play up those aspects we like, and agree with and dismiss those that don't appeal, we do it with our current events today. If it reinforces our thinking it is right and true, if it doesn't it can't possibly be true. We have to view history with an unbiased eye, if at all possible, to truly learn, and not repeat it.

That said, that the border families didn't observe clann culture, though true, but maybe not entirely, doesn't mean that they cannot adopt such a culture and it be valid. Were they Clanns in the historical sense of the Highland Families, no, but they adopted the structure for whatever reason and now, at least, speak of a clan culture. Is it romanticist sure, is it less valid because it doesn't have centuries of history behind it no, so long as it is not just lip service.. Can I call my family a clann, add my extended family, and friends, sure. I give them allegiance, I would fight to protect them, I am proud of them. I am proud that I have Scots blood whether my family originated from Kilmarnock, or Butte, or the highest of the Highlands.

So, the trisepts only got three channels as oppossed to extended cable?

[Mac Ghille Sheathanaich]

Greetings all, 8 October, 12:34MST

I agree that it isn't in anyones' best interest to go bursting the bubble of another.

for example.........

"Clan" Wallace held a major get-together at the Boise Games in '08. Looked like a bunch of Scotch tape dispensers running around, but I digress.

They even had a "One-Feather" there. There is no way I would have drawn my dagger and waded into that group to try to convince them that they are not a "Clan".

The term translated from Gaelic means "family" anyway.

When one looks at the broad picture, we are all family.

Fide et Fortitudine, aye!

T.

[tulloch]

Well you might not be glad you asked, Geoff, but I certainly am. Illuminating, disarming, informative and charming. Carry on. I am taking all of this in.

[tulloch]

Sir, I have a really punning clan!

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

When the Pommies figured...

Always find this one interesting, we generally refer to the English down here as kipper eaters and some times whinging pomes, but the real pomes are the Australians...

(Prisoners Of Mother England).

Great humour by the way.

[Urchurdan]

Originally Posted by Dall_Piobaire

You know, I think both lines of thought are illuminating in that there is history and then His or Her story.

We always have to remain open to refutation of our most deeply held, and dearest ideas of what was what, how, and when. When facts are viewed solely as facts, and are supportable as facts, they can smash idyllic views of how we really wanted things to be. We want to play up those aspects we like, and agree with and dismiss those that don't appeal, we do it with our current events today. If it reinforces our thinking it is right and true, if it doesn't it can't possibly be true. We have to view history with an unbiased eye, if at all possible, to truly learn, and not repeat it.

That said, that the border families didn't observe clann culture, though true, but maybe not entirely, doesn't mean that they cannot adopt such a culture and it be valid. Were they Clanns in the historical sense of the Highland Families, no, but they adopted the structure for whatever reason and now, at least, speak of a clan culture. Is it romanticist sure, is it less valid because it doesn't have centuries of history behind it no, so long as it is not just lip service.. Can I call my family a clann, add my extended family, and friends, sure. I give them allegiance, I would fight to protect them, I am proud of them. I am proud that I have Scots blood whether my family originated from Kilmarnock, or Butte, or the highest of the Highlands.

So, the trisepts only got three channels as oppossed to extended cable?

An excellent post, captures exactly how I feel about it, if you FEEL like a Clan and act like a Clan, then I would say you are a Clan. Just ask the Claus Clan members, their feeling of 'Clanship' to one another is probably stronger than what the vast majority of people who carry a 'Clan' name feel to each other.