Interesting name idea

[Daaaaang]

I got this idea from another thread, and I certainly can't provide this as a service, but I wonder about the possibility of translating names into clan names.

For example, my last name is French for luck, or fate. I wonder if any clan names also derive meaning from the Gaelic words for the same concepts.

I'm blood-related to the MacLarens, but it would be interesting if I had another connection based on our names sharing a meaning.

Plus, it would be a neat way for people without a clan to find themselves a clan that is related to their name. I know a lot of people would really object to that idea, I'm not saying everybody should go and do that, if you want to argue about it, let's do that in another thread, okay?

I'm wondering if anybody knows Gaelic well enough that they would be able to see said connections. Are there any connections?

Matt

[Arizona Scot]

Don't know Gaelic but it sounds like it could be interesting, I would like to see what others can come up with. The amount of knowledge on this forum sometimes seems boundless.

[Dirk Skene]

Clan Skene ... the knife clan. Frasier is strawberry I think.

[gilmore]

Your suppositions miss the point, and put the horse before the cart. Surnames came relatively late to Scotland, later than many other parts of Europe. The clans were in existence long before surnames came about. Many, if not most, Highland surnames derive from clans. Clans do not derive from surnames.

"Clan" is Gaelic for children. The entire idea of a clan is that those in it descend, actually or mythologically or a bit of both, from a common ancestor.

To my mind there are already far too many bogus claims made about septs, clan membership, etc, to warrant coming up yet another way to muddy the waters by trying to sell people on the idea that if their name can be translated into Gaelic, they can then go out and "find themselves a clan" by promoting a fraudelent connection that simply does not exist. You do not find yourself a clan. A clan finds you.

You see, there are many of us who are interested primarily in genealogical research, which is ultimately a search for the truth about one's ancestors. There have long been those who, out of pride or wanting to make themselves appear more interesting, have made up or bought into all sorts of fanciful, romantic and colorful lies about their ancestors. The further back one goes in history, the more one has to rely on secondary sources. The more one relies on secondary sources, the more of these lies one encounters, until one finds oneself spending more time plowing through the bullshit than doing original research, separating the truth from fiction.

Please don't do this. Please don't encourage people to come up with even more ways to think up lies about their families. Believe me, their descendants and relatives will not thank you for it at all.

[slohairt]

Tis a complicated mess to be sure. I agree with much of what has been said above, save to point out when one talks of Scotland, one must always specify whether they mean Highlander or Lowlander. Different culture, different traditions, different naming systems.

Fixed surnames were a relatively recent phenomena in Gaelic Scotland (and Wales). Patronymics changed with each generation, like they still do in Iceland. Ireland is a different matter. In fact, for many Highlanders, the clan patronymic was not the patronymic they themselves used. When it came time to emigrate, many of these clansmen had very long, unwieldy (to English-speakers), multiple patronymics that they discarded upon moving to the Colonies, Lowland cities, and all points between.

e.g. Domhnall Og Mhic Dhomhnuill Mhic Asgaill Mhic Cormaic Mhic Aoidh Mac an Mhaighstir (Little Domhnall, son of Asgall, son of Cormac, son of Aodh, son of the master) moves to Edinburgh and becomes Donald McMaster.

This accounts for the large number of people who have certain clan names (i.e. MacDonald). While it (MacDonald) is obviously a large clan, many of its members would have had different patronymics at one time. Sadly, this also accounts for why there are many extinct Gaelic patronymics.

In addition, others chose politically neutral names like Brown or Smith, others translated their names (both accurately or mistakenly), transliterated their names (usually badly), and still others would alter the spelling to match that of an existing surname in the Lowlands.

So, it is possible to be a MacDonald and not be a MacDonald, if you take my meaning.

As for translating names? Though most Gaelic surnames (be they Irish, Scottish, or Manx) are patronymics, you find that many names are easily translated to and from different languages. Most are fairly boring; son of John, etc. MacLaren, to use your example, is Mac Labhruinn meaning son of Lawrence.

[Larry124]

Example...?

My surname is Byrnes.

The way I understand it, that is Irish that came from Byrne, which came from O’Byrne, which came from O’Broin, which came from Bran, which means “Raven”.

There is a Sept of Clan Campbell named Burnes. Is it the same?

[gilmore]

Example...?

My surname is Byrnes.

The way I understand it, that is Irish that came from Byrne, which came from O’Byrne, which came from O’Broin, which came from Bran, which means “Raven”.

There is a Sept of Clan Campbell named Burnes. Is it the same?

As I understand the proposal, you can make up almost any connection you can think of---etymological, phonetic or otherwise--- and then go "find yourself a clan."

[slohairt]

Example...?

My surname is Byrnes.

The way I understand it, that is Irish that came from Byrne, which came from O’Byrne, which came from O’Broin, which came from Bran, which means “Raven”.

There is a Sept of Clan Campbell named Burnes. Is it the same?

No. The Lowland Scots surname Burnes is from the Anglo-Saxon topographical term burn, meaning a stream. So no connection, merely an anglicised coincidence.

[Frank McGrath]

The research I have done says that Magrath is a sept of MacRae. Somewhere along the line it was changed to McGrath. So, down the line somewhere I have Scottish ancestors (?)

[slohairt]

The research I have done says that Magrath is a sept of MacRae. Somewhere along the line it was changed to McGrath. So, down the line somewhere I have Scottish ancestors (?)

Therein lies the problem with modern sept lists. It's not a sept, it's the same name: both are Anglicisations of Mac Rath. (Pronounced MAC RA)