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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    The only jackets that I know to be recognised as truly formal are the now pretty well obsolete Regulation doublet and the later Prince Charlie. All others are local creations by tailors to suit the requirements of their customers and when and how they are worn is a personal decision by the owner unless a strict dress code is pre-ordained, a rarity nowadays. By these I mean the Montrose or Military doublet, the Kenmore, the Sheriffmuir etc. which, while many on a site such as this who have received their influences at second hand accordingly have come to regard them as formal jackets, are really just variations on traditional Scottish garments. I suppose the closest modern Saxon-type approximation I could give is wearing your business suit jacket with jeans and an open neck shirt, quite common nowadays. What should not be done is to try and pigeonhole garments into rigid compartments that they do not and never have belonged in. I suppose it is an attempt to fit Scottish dress into an Anglo Saxon culture without recognising that the two cultures are quite distinct and have developed independently of each other over many hundreds of years.
    And no, it is not something I would typically see in mine or any other area of Scotland. Not through lack of trying but simply that, apart from busking pipers on street corners, occasional hotel doorkeepers and tartan shop assistants the principal highland dress encountered are worn by those on their way to a wedding in their Prince Charlies. You will likely encounter more hen’s teeth in Scotland than you will Sheriffmuir doublets and how they must be worn will be in a similarly intangible territory.
    Highland dress is a free type of dress and attempts to shoehorn it into rigid stereotypes is not one that Scots would necessarily recognise. Certainly there are recognised conventions such as the pleats at the back of the kilt and a Prince Charlie for evening wear if a bit formal but whatever else you choose to wear is an entirely personal decision. Others may disapprove of this, may even be critical due to the misconceptions they have acquired over the years or the egocentric opinions handed down as tablets of stone they may have heard or read. And, of course, these personal opinions that they have developed from these influences are no more nor less than that - personal opinions. They have no relevance to the opinions and choices of anyone else, nor should they have.
    I must say, I was quite happy (and a even a bit relieved) to read that. I've been torn between a genuine fondness for the look of a doublet, and the fact that I literally never find myself at truly formal events.

    See, I originally bought an Argyll jacket because I'd seen over and over that if you're only gonna have one jacket, make it an Argyll. However, it ceased to be my only jacket with the arrival of my tweed Braemar, and now I find that it's relegated to those times when tweed just isn't quite dressy enough. Not to be a hipster, but it's such a common jacket choice that I'm kinda' bored with it. I knew I wanted something a bit more interesting, but again, I've repeatedly read and heard that doublets are only for formalwear. And while it's no secret that I'm rather antiauthoritarian when it comes to matters of fashion, I don't wish to come across as a total fop either.

    So with my apprehension rapidly fading after reading EdinSteve's post, I can now be torn between a Sherrifmuir or a Balmoral, barathea or arrochar...and of course, whether to keep the Argyll for when a doublet would be bit too eccentric (e.g. funerals), or to get a Wallace jacket that purpose and retire the Argyll altogether.

  2. #12
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    I had this same question when I bought my Sheriffmuir last year. With the help a few on XMS, I now wear a collarless shirt, and either jabot or highland cravat with a pin. It works for me.

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  4. #13
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Well said, kilted sergeant, and, looking at Steve’s earlier post you can see a sheriffmuir at all levels of formality. I hope that my post can bring some level of reality to what you should wear. Scotland does not have “white tie and tails” in the Anglo Saxon dress code so just make your own choices. It is less and less likely that formal events will be on the invitation nowadays so now it is up to individuals to decide how they will dress. If you have a regulation doublet, jabot and all the trimmings then why not wear them?
    There are no longer the rules that defined how you should dress and it is an individual’s choice what they should wear. And be in no doubt that these so-called highland dress conventions do not exist apart from in the (closed) minds of a few dinosaurs for whom change is regarded as a threat, not an opportunity.

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    -----------

    There are no longer the rules that defined how you should dress and it is an individual’s choice what they should wear. And be in no doubt that these so-called highland dress conventions do not exist apart from in the (closed) minds of a few dinosaurs for whom change is regarded as a threat, not an opportunity.
    I am afraid that I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Steve. Perhaps in Edinburgh, where kilt attire conventions have been adjusted for decades and if that is anyone's preference then, so be it.

    However, quite a number of us out in the sticks , some of them quite young "dinosaurs" and , I might add, are more than capable of making up their own minds on these matters, still choose to conform to earlier kilt dress conventions and these conventions still very much exist today. Its a matter of choice, which is the right of each and every one of us.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 1st March 19 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Added an afterthought.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  8. #15
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    However, quite a number of us out in the sticks , some of them quite young "dinosaurs" and , I might add, are more than capable of making up their own minds on these matters, still choose to conform to earlier kilt dress conventions and these conventions still very much exist today. Its a matter of choice, which is the right of each and every one of us.
    Well said, Jock, and I couldn’t agree more. Like your dinosaurs we too are all more than capable of making up our own minds which is pretty much at the heart of what I was trying to say.
    You don’t describe these “kilt dress conventions” you mention so I know that everyone here would value these. I know I only went as far as “pleats at the back” or “Prince Charlies are formal” but it is important that any others I have missed are clarified now for the avoidance of doubt.

  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    I am afraid that I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Steve. Perhaps in Edinburgh, where kilt attire conventions have been adjusted for decades and if that is anyone's preference then, so be it.

    However, quite a number of us out in the sticks , some of them quite young "dinosaurs" and , I might add, are more than capable of making up their own minds on these matters, still choose to conform to earlier kilt dress conventions and these conventions still very much exist today. Its a matter of choice, which is the right of each and every one of us.
    So Jack, If you would please, could you educate us as to what are the"earlier kilt dress conventions and these conventions still very much exist today", as regards proper shirt(s) style to wear with a Sheriffmuir? Some us are still willing to learn what those traditional conventions are ( if even not all will always follow them).
    waulk softly and carry a big schtick

  10. #17
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    Post deleted for security reasons.

    J S.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 4th March 19 at 09:09 PM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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  12. #18
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    I think it is important to note that each generation (and to a lesser extent nowadays - region) has a different idea of what is correct and proper. Certain expectations, traditions, and affectations are met whilst others are disregarded. Some people push the boundaries of what is acceptable and it becomes fashionable, sometimes it is scoffed at.
    Just look at how suits change decade on decade. Highland dress is no different.

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  14. #19
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsty View Post
    I think it is important to note that each generation (and to a lesser extent nowadays - region) has a different idea of what is correct and proper. Certain expectations, traditions, and affectations are met whilst others are disregarded. Some people push the boundaries of what is acceptable and it becomes fashionable, sometimes it is scoffed at.
    Just look at how suits change decade on decade. Highland dress is no different.
    What you say is very true and what I have realised in my short time here is that there exists a strong undercurrent of conservatism with regard to highland dress. And that it is not, surprisingly, from a Scottish viewpoint with, perhaps, one notable exception.
    Your comment about generational differences is, of course, a natural consequence of early influences persisting into later life but that is no reason why the generations cannot co-exist provided they are adaptable and understanding of each other. I, for instance, would never consider sallying forth with desert boots and scrunched down socks as favoured by younger rugby fans or a Scotland t-shirt and piper’s doublet with a feather festooned glengarry that the Tartan Army prefers. It is not for me, however, to disapprove or otherwise be critical of their choices or to regard it in some heretical way just because a kilt is part of their dress. In the same way no-one has the right to criticise my choice of wearing a sheriffmuir open with a jacobean shirt. They may not choose to dress in that way but their choice is not my choice.
    I suppose what I am really trying to say is that there seems to have developed an almost religious reverence to highland dress and its accoutrements and a belief that no part of this dogma is open to interpretation. Get real folks. It is just clothing!

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  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    I will admit right off the bat that the formal end of Highland attire is not my bailiwick, but why would the sheriffmuir lend itself to being worn casually? It seems to be built with components that are typical of more formal jackets (tashes, square metal buttons, etc.). If I saw someone wearing one with a Jacobite shirt, I must admit I would think it looks very strange. Is this something you typically see in your area of Scotland?
    To be fair much as I don't agree with some of the more ridiculous ideas that have grown up around the jacobite shirt I would say that worn with a Scarf worn cravatte fashion over the top with the collar turned up a Jacobite shirt can look just as formal - I dare say you could also wear the shirt open with the collar turned down with the cravatte on the inside at the neck, but then over the top of the lacing.

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