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  1. #1
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    42nd Royal Highland Regiment

    Here is a pic of our last event! Fort Massac in Metropolis, Illinois. We are a group of living historians out of the Midwest who portray the 42nd RHR. As a Grenadier company. Iím the one in the bonnet, in the line of bearskins.

  2. #2
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    Hey Matt, We probably know each other, perhaps by only sight. But your photo didnt come thru.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Greetings from a fellow midwesterner, and one day I will be out with your 42nd, I just have my hands full in F&I, 78th here in Indiana and the 42nd unit I belong to out in Pittsburgh

  3. #3
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    Hey, Mattedbeard, is your RevWar 42nd Grenadier Company affiliated with the NWTA? I used to come out to the Midwest to reenact with the 42nd Grens founded by Dave Hamilton. My own RevWar 42nd group (Major's Company) was out of the Central Atlantic area (PA, MD, DC, VA).

    Luke, I like your uniform, but I assume you are a musketman temporarily doing musical duties. Are you planning on having a buff musician's coat made, properly laced?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis View Post
    Hey, Mattedbeard, is your RevWar 42nd Grenadier Company affiliated with the NWTA? I used to come out to the Midwest to reenact with the 42nd Grens founded by Dave Hamilton. My own RevWar 42nd group (Major's Company) was out of the Central Atlantic area (PA, MD, DC, VA).

    Luke, I like your uniform, but I assume you are a musketman temporarily doing musical duties. Are you planning on having a buff musician's coat made, properly laced?
    Already made the coat, waiting on a possible record of what the lace actually was for the 78th!!!!

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    But I actually dont worry too much about revered colors or a lack of lace, as there is evidence of it not having been done.

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  5. #5
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    Luke - thanks for providing the photo and graphics. I'll be interested to see what your drummer's coat looks like after you get more information on the regimental lace that the 78th used after 1759. Or are you going to have an "early war" coat and a "late war" coat. Just like drill, a lot of units make a decision to go "early war" or "late war" and stick with it no matter what battles they are reenacting.

    Just a question for you: In the Osprey book "Highlanders in the French-Indian War" (Warrior 126 - which you've probably read and may own), the author (whom you may have met) states that the drummer's fur caps of the various regiments were of white fur in the form of 1768 grenadier caps (oval circlet on the back with the regimental number, rather than a falling bag), and that the various regiments' fur grenadier/pioneer caps had the front flap in facing color (vice red) - so that for the 78th would be light buff/white with red embroidery, etc. The author cites as his source Lord John Murray's correspondence in something called the "Bagshaw Muniments," which I have not seen. Given your extensive research, perhaps you have seen this source. What is your opinion of this information.

    Additionally, 42nd drummers are showin philabegs of what is now called "42nd coarse kilts" tartan. Outside of Morier's portrait of a 42nd grenadier (dated to about 1750, I think), I don't know if the Regiment can be documented to be wearing that tartan at this date. Likewise, in the 1819 Key Pattern Book, William Wilson & Sons was weaving a tartan called the 42nd Musicians' tartan. Figheadair and I discussed this tartan (I ordered some to be made into a modern box-pleat kilt) and we had no information of it possibly being used earlier than the Napoleonic period, and maybe as early as the 1780s. Do you have any info (or opinions) on this matter?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis View Post
    Additionally, 42nd drummers are showin philabegs of what is now called "42nd coarse kilts" tartan. Outside of Morier's portrait of a 42nd grenadier (dated to about 1750, I think), I don't know if the Regiment can be documented to be wearing that tartan at this date. Likewise, in the 1819 Key Pattern Book, William Wilson & Sons was weaving a tartan called the 42nd Musicians' tartan. Figheadair and I discussed this tartan (I ordered some to be made into a modern box-pleat kilt) and we had no information of it possibly being used earlier than the Napoleonic period, and maybe as early as the 1780s. Do you have any info (or opinions) on this matter?
    Gerry, the Morier portrait is, IMO, quite poorly executed so far as the tartan is concerned and the evidence for the tartan having a red stripe far from convincing. The earliest proof I have of the 'Coarse Kilt with Red' tartan is the c1782 portrait of the Duke of Atholl in a feileadh beag. It's logical to assume that the kilt/tartan he wears was not made for the portrait and so potentially a few years older.

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    So far as the Music Tartan is concerned, and despite what Stewart of Garth and James Logan claimed about its use from the early days of the regiment, I can find no evidence of it before c1780, about the same date as the Coarse Kilt setting. That does not preclude either being older of course.

  7. #7
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    Thank you, Peter. I kinda/sorta remembered what we had discussed about these two tartans when we were in the process of getting them made up for my modern kilt projects, but it is always good to be brought up to date with the definitive evidence from an expert.

  8. #8
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    Orvis,

    I do happen to have complete copies of all of Col Murray's military papers, and the 1758-62 Quartermaster record book for the 2d Battalion. Neither of these sources have any mention of their being separate grenadier and OR's plaids, or Musicians plaids. The only distinctions are that NCO's and Drum and pipe Major's tartans are better quality than the enlisted men.

    Ive not spoken directly on the subject with the good Col, but Ive heard that a number of things he wrote were changed by an editor to match the artwork that was commissioned, that he had no approval on.

    That being said; The Grenadier drummers in the 42nd after being made royal did have white hair for their caps. No other information is noted. Piper's did have Grenadier style caps, but no color is noted. They also had some form of a Shoulder knot, Perhaps mixed color? That is what we are going to go with, a 3 strand type "Rope" of red, white and blue. I do know the company what was contracted to make the caps, and searching for any surviving records is on my list of things to do, perhaps even as soon as I get all of Peter's money collected for our new hose! So having a blue front is as far as Im concerned a modern artists interpretation, and one that I think is only loosely supported by evidence. Either way, its a SWAG.

    Pioneers caps are noted as being similar to the new style worn by the Light Dragoons, and that the Pioneer CPL's cap was made of blue leather, with a red and white horsehair crest on the side.

    Drummers lace for the 42nd is also problematic. Im going to be using the same lace the whole hobby is using for royal regiment drummers, but I know its wrong.......The earliest I can document a 42nd drummers lace pattern is 1806. Its blue FdL's on a yellow ground, with a white chain loop of I think silk on each side.

    As to the other regiments lace, the censure of Fraser reads as if there was an approved pattern in 57, probably was on those uniforms, but had been omitted on the uniforms in 58 thru 60 and would have shown back up on uniforms in 61-63. I have lots of plain white lace, I just chose to not sew it on. I may have to lace that buff coat with pre royal 42nd lace for Ti next year. I still dont know if Im drumming, being a private or filling a leadership role.

    I hate to make a lot of definitive statements, as there is one yet untapped resource, the Regimental Agent's book in London. I keep hoping that Peter, or Sean Phillips will pop in and get photos of the pages, but I think I will have to do it myself Then over some pints get all my Paratrooper/Weaver friends in the UK to help me interpret it!!!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    I hate to make a lot of definitive statements, as there is one yet untapped resource, the Regimental Agent's book in London. I keep hoping that Peter, or Sean Phillips will pop in and get photos of the pages, but I think I will have to do it myself Then over some pints get all my Paratrooper/Weaver friends in the UK to help me interpret it!!!!
    Contact me via email and we can discuss. I'll be in London a couple times in the next month or two and misght have some time.

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  11. #10
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    11th July 05
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    Luke,

    Thanks for all of the information. While I'm not going to use it myself (as I told you, my redcoat Highlander unit died about 15 years ago), I'm still intellectually interested in this issue - one doesn't do a lot of research and just let it go. I wish you luck getting information from the Regimental Agent's book - is that at Kew? I certainly hope the collaboration between you and Peter works out in that regard. I will be most interested to know what the book says, particularly about the RevWar era uniforms, tartan(s) and other features that an agent should have been intimately familiar with and recorded to justify his payment from the Colonel.

    Peter,

    I'm glad you're "in" on this issue and will have some time during one of your London visits to access the Regimental Agent's book for the 42nd RHR. Perhaps such evidence exists for other regiments as well.

    Gerry

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