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  1. #11
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    Orvis,

    The Agent's book is in the Lloyd's of London Archive. Which means that getting the info requires an actual visit, unable to be done via the internet. Paul Pace of the 42nd Light's has the entire book starting with the 63 Havana prize money distribution till the end of the Rev War. So close......

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis View Post
    Luke,

    Thanks for all of the information. While I'm not going to use it myself (as I told you, my redcoat Highlander unit died about 15 years ago), I'm still intellectually interested in this issue - one doesn't do a lot of research and just let it go. I wish you luck getting information from the Regimental Agent's book - is that at Kew? I certainly hope the collaboration between you and Peter works out in that regard. I will be most interested to know what the book says, particularly about the RevWar era uniforms, tartan(s) and other features that an agent should have been intimately familiar with and recorded to justify his payment from the Colonel.

    Peter,

    I'm glad you're "in" on this issue and will have some time during one of your London visits to access the Regimental Agent's book for the 42nd RHR. Perhaps such evidence exists for other regiments as well.

    Gerry
    Gerry,

    Here's what is in the Lloyd's archive:

    The letters, papers and accounts of Lord John Murray (1711-87) and Lieutenant-General William Murray (d. 1818). Papers include regimental orders, accounts, correspondence and lists of officers, 1743-1785.

  3. #13
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    What I was referring to in the Lloyds Archive was the Regimental Ledger, Item A/56/e/113 Fourty-Second Foot 1758-1769.

  4. #14
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    I'm always interested in information about pipers' kit, and little there seems to be!

    The problem of course is that there was no allowance for pipers on the official establishment.

    From what I've read they were either paid by the officers, or paid by the government by the ruse of officially being drummers.

    Their outfits varied, being
    1) civilian livery just as they would wear in the employ of the aristocracy outside the army
    2) musician's uniforms
    3) ordinary soldier's uniforms.

    So one sees 18th and early 19th century army pipers in tartan outfits, reversed colours, and ordinary red.

    The thing about the pipers wearing Grenadier caps is very interesting. Why on earth would pipers wear them, I wonder?
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    I'm always interested in information about pipers' kit, and little there seems to be!

    The problem of course is that there was no allowance for pipers on the official establishment.

    From what I've read they were either paid by the officers, or paid by the government by the ruse of officially being drummers.

    Their outfits varied, being
    1) civilian livery just as they would wear in the employ of the aristocracy outside the army
    2) musician's uniforms
    3) ordinary soldier's uniforms.

    So one sees 18th and early 19th century army pipers in tartan outfits, reversed colours, and ordinary red.

    The thing about the pipers wearing Grenadier caps is very interesting. Why on earth would pipers wear them, I wonder?
    The idea that pipers were not authorized, Ive even heard it said not till the 1850's is simply not true. 2 Pipers in highland regiments, assigned to the Grenadier company was the standard by the late 1750's. No different than the 2 fifers assigned to the Grenadier company in non highland regiments.

    Here is a letter from the Clothing Board of General Officers regarding the raising of Keith's and Campbell's Highlander, who ended up serving on the Continent.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	piperauthorization.JPG 
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ID:	35938

    2 pipers in the Grenadier company. Now with the 78th, the lone piper in the regiment was the Grenadier company commanders servant. In the 42nd they were on paper as pipers, their extra pay over that of a normal drummer was paid by off reckonings from the Officers. Sometimes pipers and drummers switched places, in that a piper was punished for some misdeed by having to switch to playing drums. That tells me that piping and drumming both were required to even be considered for recruitment.

  6. #16
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    When I wrote my paper on the Music Tartan I had a number of discussions with Alistair Duthie who was at the time researching the history of piping and pipers in the Black Watch. He mentioned having found something in a clothing return dated Nov 1759 when the clothing for the Battalion in Nth America was being ordered and which included as specific mention of 1 x Piper Major's Plaid.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    When I wrote my paper on the Music Tartan I had a number of discussions with Alistair Duthie who was at the time researching the history of piping and pipers in the Black Watch. He mentioned having found something in a clothing return dated Nov 1759 when the clothing for the Battalion in Nth America was being ordered and which included as specific mention of 1 x Piper Major's Plaid.
    There is a list,

    Account of clothing &c furnished by William Sanderman at Perth for the 7 Compny's of the Royal Highland Regiment
    714 plaids for 700 Privates & 14 Drummers
    30 ditto fine, being for 27 Sergeants, 1 Sgt Major, 1 Piper Major & 1 Drum Major

    As the list continues everything from bonnets to hose to sword belts all show that privates and drummers got one quality while the NCO's and the "Majors" received a higher quality.

    I am unable to post the document, or a transcript as the BW museum has exerted copyright on both the image of the ledger, and the information contained on the pages.

  8. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Luke MacGillie For This Useful Post:


  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    The idea that pipers were not authorized, Ive even heard it said not till the 1850's is simply not true. 2 Pipers in highland regiments, assigned to the Grenadier company was the standard by the late 1750's. No different than the 2 fifers assigned to the Grenadier company in non highland regiments.

    Here is a letter from the Clothing Board of General Officers regarding the raising of Keith's and Campbell's Highlander, who ended up serving on the Continent.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	piperauthorization.JPG 
Views:	5 
Size:	90.4 KB 
ID:	35938

    2 pipers in the Grenadier company. Now with the 78th, the lone piper in the regiment was the Grenadier company commanders servant. In the 42nd they were on paper as pipers, their extra pay over that of a normal drummer was paid by off reckonings from the Officers. Sometimes pipers and drummers switched places, in that a piper was punished for some misdeed by having to switch to playing drums. That tells me that piping and drumming both were required to even be considered for recruitment.
    Interesting, I'd always wondered if skill in the drums was necessary for pipers to maintain the 'drummer' ruse...it would seem so from the evidence you've presented..

    One wonders how aware those higher up outside of the Highland Regiments were of the practice, and whether they actually cared about it?...

  10. #19
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    This is an entry from Cpt Stewart's Orderly Book,

    New York 10 th April 1759
    Parole Chesterfield. Reg t . Orders.
    The Reg t to be out tomorrow at the usual time & place, the officers are strictly to examine before
    the Reg t leaves the barracks to take particular care that the men will have no cattradges with ball
    in their cattradggs boxes or have any of their fire locks loaded.

    Oven McIntyre pipper in the Grand r Comp y is appointed pipper major and is this day to receive
    the cloathing accordingly.

    Petter McIntyre pipper in Capt. McNeills Compy is for the future to be on the footing of a drum
    and to be subsisted accordingly.


    There is an entry in the Cox and Company ledger for the 42nd, what was earlier referred to as the ledger in the Lloyds Archive:

    "For the difference of privates and drummers pay to the piper-major, 25th April to 26th December 1759, 1 18s. 10d"

    This is from Wallace's "Regimental Routine and Army Administration in North America in 1759" which was published in the Spring 1952 JSFAHR.


    A 1774 inspection of the regiment noted: "2 Pipers and a very good Band of Music" They very well might have, in day to day operations had more pipers, but for the inspection just the 2 authorized ones, plus the band of music paid for by COL Murray. We know that it really was a band of music, not just a pipe band as there is a customs inspection noting a box of musical instruments being shipped from London to Ireland for the regiments use.

  11. #20
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    As mentioned in the Queens Own Highlanders Collection of Pipe Music:

    "Pipers were officially recognised in Highland Regiments in 1854. A Pipe Major at 1/10d. per day and five pipers at 1/1d. per day were then authorised. The Pipe Major ranked as a Sergeant. Previously the appointment was a Regimental one, the Piper-Major and the pipers being borne against the establishment of drummers."

    So yes pipers might well appear in regimental papers but as far as the British Army was concerned they were unofficial.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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