[Dixiecat]

I understand all your statements and I'm familiar with the time period and the traditional Scot/French alliances.

I guess what I'm saying is, that the wearing of the white rosette or cockade by a French gentleman would normally show the association of that gentleman with the French royalists or Bourbon causes. If that French gentleman was in Scotland during the Jacobite uprising, would that gentleman be showing his association with the French forces that were there to support Prince Charles or was he actually showing his support of Prince Charles regardless of the gentleman's place of birth?

Was a Scottish Jacobite serving in the French king's forces (in France) and wearing the white rosette or cockade, showing his Jacobite sympathies or just wearing his employers colours? How did the Jacobite cause take the colour white? Did they copy the French or did the French copy them?

There are records of Scottish mercenaries serving in armies all across Europe long before the Jacobite cause, how did they show their association to their country? Other than the kilt of course.

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by Ancienne Alliance

Thank you !

I suppose we don't have any paintings of these uniforms... ?


Best,

Robert

http://books.google.com/books?id=n5t...age&q=&f=false

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by Dixiecat

I understand all your statements and I'm familiar with the time period and the traditional Scot/French alliances.

I guess what I'm saying is, that the wearing of the white rosette or cockade by a French gentleman would normally show the association of that gentleman with the French royalists or Bourbon causes. If that French gentleman was in Scotland during the Jacobite uprising, would that gentleman be showing his association with the French forces that were there to support Prince Charles or was he actually showing his support of Prince Charles regardless of the gentleman's place of birth?

A gentleman would not change the cockade in his hat simply because he was moving about Europe. It would seem to be extremely unlikely that a French gentleman would be in Scotland during the rebellion of 1745-1746 under any but military circumstances.

Something that has to be remembered is that servants would inevitably wear a cockade of the livery colours of their employer, not necessarily their national colours. A gentleman might wear a cockade of national or political affiliation, but he was just as apt to wear one that matched his coat or waitscoat.

Originally Posted by Dixiecat

Was a Scottish Jacobite serving in the French king's forces (in France) and wearing the white rosette or cockade, showing his Jacobite sympathies or just wearing his employers colours?

He was wearing the colours of the French king.

Originally Posted by DIXIECAT

How did the Jacobite cause take the colour white?

Surely you know the story of Prince Charles and the "White Rose"?

Originally Posted by Dixiecat

Did they copy the French or did the French copy them?

Neither. They occurred quite independent of each other.

Originally Posted by Dixiecat

There are records of Scottish mercenaries serving in armies all across Europe long before the Jacobite cause, how did they show their association to their country? Other than the kilt of course.

Generally speaking, at least in the 18th century, they didn't. They served in "Scottish" regiments, and were generally led by exiled Scottish officers, but they wore the uniform of the nation under whose flag they were fighting.

When Burns wrote "Hey Johnny Lad, Cock Up Your Beaver!" he was satirizing the young men who were willing to spout bellicose politics, but who lacked the courage of their words to "cock their beavers" (beaver being a common term for a hat, and a cocked hat being one with a cockade).

[cajunscot]

In the case of the Royal Ecossais, there are some depictions of soldiers wearing French uniforms with Jacobite blue bonnets and white cockades.

T.

[HarborSpringsPiper]

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

and a cocked hat being one with a cockade).

The term cocked hat refers to the brim being turned up into a bi-corn or tri-corn. Its meaning is independent of the presenence or absence of a cockade.

[Bigkahuna]

Originally Posted by cajunscot

In the case of the Royal Ecossais, there are some depictions of soldiers wearing French uniforms with Jacobite blue bonnets and white cockades.

T.

Is it possible that they are wearing their blue bonnets in lieu of the standard French fatigue cap?

[cajunscot]

Originally Posted by Bigkahuna

Is it possible that they are wearing their blue bonnets in lieu of the standard French fatigue cap?

Stuart Reid, in The Scottish Jacobite Army 1745-46, quotes the transcript of the trial of Lt. William Oliphant, in which a witness said that Oliphant was wearing the uniform of officers of Drummonds' regiment, complete with "blue bonnets and white cockades" when captured at Culloden. (p. 62-63).

T.

[piperdbh]

Robert, as usual your post here is informative, entertaining and beautifully photographed.

I wonder where one would acquire a scissors-and-needles holder like yours? I've never seen one with a stand of 'pipes, a field drum, and a kilt, sporran, and jacket, until now. If you have another that's not being used, please put it in the mail to me at your earliest convenience.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by HarborSpringsPiper

The term cocked hat refers to the brim being turned up into a bi-corn or tri-corn. Its meaning is independent of the presenence or absence of a cockade.

Really? I thought it was just the opposite-- in France, at least, a bicorne or tricorne seems to be referred to as a cocked hat when it is fitted with a cockade. I know in Great Britain all bicorne hats worn as part of a uniform (either civil or military) are described in the regulations as being fitted with a black silk cockade, and there after referred to as a cocked hat. But if I'm wrong, thanks for setting me straight.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Originally Posted by piperdbh

Robert, as usual your post here is informative, entertaining and beautifully photographed.



I wonder where one would acquire a scissors-and-needles holder like yours? I've never seen one with a stand of 'pipes, a field drum, and a kilt, sporran, and jacket, until now. If you have another that's not being used, please put it in the mail to me at your earliest convenience.

This fine hand cast pewter sewing station http://www.pewtergiftware.com/catalo...aspx?cid=14183 was offered as a gift to Lady Chrystel by our dear friend Mael Coluim.

You can visit the website of A.E. Williams (established in 1779) :
www.pewtergiftware.com


Best,

Robert