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  1. #21
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    That's the common civilian "doublet", the standard jacket in Highland Dress from c1840 to c1910.

    For example, in The Highlanders Of Scotland 24 of the 56 kilted figures are wearing them. (21 are wearing ordinary sack coats, two with Argyll jackets, and so on.)

    I have a hundred photos of guys wearing those.

    The doublet never went extinct, but evolved into the oddly-named "regulation doublet" of today. (Just what regulation is being referenced, who can say.)

    In the 19th century there was a wide variety of "cuts" of the doublets, the main differences being in the height of the front "V" and the width of lapels.

    These are interesting because the flaps are in line with the front edge of the jacket.





    Here's a velvet one with the flaps moved back from the front edge a bit



    Here's one with fancy trim



    Another velvet one





    Around 1900 there was a fad for having trim on these doublets



    Here's something different, a double-breasted one c1860



    Also c1860 here's one that's buttoned up



    So often in these old photos they're wearing plaids and crossbelts that hide the cut of the jacket.

    This photo is very nice because the whole doublet can be seen



    As you can see there was a wide spectrum of cuts. Some were designed to be buttoned up nearly to the top, some were designed with a low "V" like modern tuxedos, some were designed to be buttoned only near the top and for the jacket to hang open creating an inverted "V"

    There was no standard pattern, unlike today when you can attend an evening event and see 20 men in identical Prince Charlie coatees.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 26th January 19 at 08:35 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  3. #22
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    I Googled "regulation doublet" and the pictures I was seeing wasn't the jacket I saw in your photo. Perhaps, if you wouldn't mind, could you upload another photo?

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    That's the common civilian "doublet", the standard jacket in Highland Dress from c1840 to c1910.

    I have a hundred photos of guys wearing those.

    The doublet never went extinct, but evolved into the oddly-named "regulation doublet" of today. (Just what regulation is being referenced, who can say.)

  4. #23
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    I feel those 19th century doublets look more like a balmoral doublet than the regulation doublet. The buttons on a regulation double are fewer and much lower like on a PC (they donít even look functional). The balmoral is a lot more like a regular jacket.

    Modern tweed balmoral from house of labhran:


    House of labhran regulation doublet:
    Descendant of the Gillises and MacDonalds of North Morar.

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  6. #24
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    jthi, would you mind reminding us if you are are seeking an historical-design jacket, or one that is within the traditional norm/evolution of the 21C?

    So that I am, I hope, clearly understood, I like the jacket you have chosen and I certainly appreciate its place in civilian Highland dress history. I like it. Are you OK with that? Are you still okay if I say that it is seen by traditionalists and Highlanders as being old-fashioned, a flight into the past, and 'costumey'?

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  8. #25
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    Mora na maidine duit, a ThistleDown.

    (G'morning!) I'm attaching a cropped image of the man in question for review. I do NOT want to look costumey unless it's for an appropriate event -- and I don't usually attend those events anyway. I think for a traditionalist I look a bit odd since I tend to follow Howie Nicholsby's socks-and-boots style and wear boots as well instead of hose and dress shoes. Except for that, I wear my kilts at a traditional height and use appropriate sporran, wear waistcoat and jackets at the appropriate time, etc. I have this community to thank for a lot of knowledge and informed opinions.

    But I do not want to look costumey.

    That said! There are aspects of historical highland wear that I simply find attractive and enjoy and want to do the tradition justice. The jackets I'm attracted to wouldn't have the flaps on the bottom hem. Really what I'm attracted to is very similar to a modern kilt jacket but it has the appearance of increased practicality as a jacket -- as in, outside wear. It would have the capability of being buttoned all the way up to at least the lower throat.

    Thanks for your patience, lads, with my rambling explorations of tastes and preferences.

    Best,
    Jonathan

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThistleDown View Post
    jthi, would you mind reminding us if you are are seeking an historical-design jacket, or one that is within the traditional norm/evolution of the 21C?

    So that I am, I hope, clearly understood, I like the jacket you have chosen and I certainly appreciate its place in civilian Highland dress history. I like it. Are you OK with that? Are you still okay if I say that it is seen by traditionalists and Highlanders as being old-fashioned, a flight into the past, and 'costumey'?

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  10. #26
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    Richard,

    As always, you are a wealth of photographic evidence. Thanks for taking the time to post and comment on these photographs. Isn't it interesting, the diversity? As you indicated, there appears to a high level of conformity in modern dress. I like and appreciate the diversity.

    Regards,
    Jonathan


    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    That's the common civilian "doublet", the standard jacket in Highland Dress from c1840 to c1910.

    For example, in The Highlanders Of Scotland 24 of the 56 kilted figures are wearing them. (21 are wearing ordinary sack coats, two with Argyll jackets, and so on.)

    I have a hundred photos of guys wearing those.

    The doublet never went extinct, but evolved into the oddly-named "regulation doublet" of today. (Just what regulation is being referenced, who can say.)

    In the 19th century there was a wide variety of "cuts" of the doublets, the main differences being in the height of the front "V" and the width of lapels.

    These are interesting because the flaps are in line with the front edge of the jacket.

    Here's a velvet one with the flaps moved back from the front edge a bit

    Here's one with fancy trim

    Another velvet one; this one has nonfunctional buttons down both front edges

    Around 1900 there was a fad for having trim on these doublets

    Here's something different, a double-breasted one c1860

    Also c1860 here's one that's buttoned up

    So often in these old photos they're wearing plaids and crossbelts that hide the cut of the jacket.

    This photo is very nice because the whole doublet can be seen

    As you can see there was a wide spectrum of cuts. Some were designed to be buttoned up nearly to the top, some were designed with a low "V" like modern tuxedos, some were designed to be buttoned only near the top and for the jacket to hang open creating an inverted "V"

    There was no standard pattern, unlike today when you can attend an evening event and see 20 men in identical Prince Charlie coatees.

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilHunter View Post
    I feel those 19th century doublets look more like a balmoral doublet than the regulation doublet.
    Yes both of those you show are well within the range of variation of what was always called simply "the doublet" and I posted numerous photos above showing that doublets resembling both of those doublets you illustrate existed throughout the 19th century (and well into the 20th).

    I have Highland Dress catalogues up through the 1950s that still carry the doublet, and call it "the doublet".

    Just why and when, perhaps in the mid-20th century, makers started calling the old doublet the "regulation doublet" who can say. But it's just a doublet, there's no such thing as a separate category of doublets called "regulation doublets".

    Likewise the House of Labhran can make a doublet and call it a "Balmoral doublet" but it's just a doublet. I posted several photos showing them dating from c1860 through c1910 and they were always just called a "doublet". In other words there is no such thing as a separate style of doublet called the "Balmoral doublet". Note that HOL's "Balmoral doublet" is nearly identical to the very top photo I posted above.

    Individual makers and sellers can dub their products with any name they choose, but attaching such modern names to things that have been around for over 150 years doesn't change the actual history of the garments and the traditional names used for them.

    About the historical v modern issue, as I see it the doublet had a wide variety of cuts in the c1840-c1920 period but for some reason in the post-WWI era Highland Dress became much more systematised and the so-called "Regulation doublet" became the more or less standard cut of the traditional doublet. The appearance of the Kenmore doublet c1930, the mid-20th century appearance of the Sheriffmuir doublet, and modern offerings such as HOL's "Balmoral" doublet show that doublets are alive and well, and are modern current things.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 26th January 19 at 08:53 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  13. #28
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    Thanks for all the great information! I've always found the regulation doublet to be more appealing than the Prince Charlie. The combination of gauntlet cuffs and tashes seems a better fit with a kilt than a PC and have thought of getting one for quite some time.

    It has been years since I've had need of a black tie outfit but I keep an eye out for a used doublet as I'd love to have one should the need arise.

    Shane

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilHunter View Post
    Balmoral doublet from house of labhran:


    A comparison of the so-called "Balmoral doublet" with a very similar doublet c1870 (the date is my personal guess). While we can't know for sure what this man called his jacket, and we can't know for sure what the tailor called it, all evidence suggests it was simply called a "doublet". When we start seeing Highland outfitters' catalogues beginning in the early 20th century that's what these jackets are called. (BTW "doublets" are jackets with the skirts/flaps/tashes all around.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FossilHunter View Post
    House of labhran regulation doublet:
    A 19th century photo of a doublet with the lower-cut "V" suggestive of the way lapels were going to go in the early 20th century, lower and lower, on Evening jackets



    Here's an early 20th century photo showing the old doublet having a style very similar to the modern so-called "Regulation doublet". Highland dress catalogues from this very period show that it was still simply called a "doublet". The only difference is the lower-cut "V" in front and satin lapels.



    About the two rows of nonfunctional buttons on either side of the chest of the modern Regulation Doublet and modern Prince Charlie, it's interesting to note that we find early Prince Charlies that lack them. Here we have buttons on one side only, though they have migrated a bit from the edge:



    And here's a modern Prince Charlie with that older button arrangement



    Were I to order a bespoke Regulation doublet I'd have those buttons left off.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 28th January 19 at 05:25 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  17. #30
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    One thing I do wonder re the'Prince Charlie' style is whatisthe point in the tails except fpr decoration? If you chopped them off you'd basically have something similar to a mess jacket and from the front it would look no different plus would expose more of the kilt? Is it just to hide the sporran straps?

    I wonder if there would be a varient on the tail style possible whereby you could fasten back with hooks and eyelets similar to how the original tail coats could be?

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