[Ancienne Alliance]

This thread is simply fascinating, gentlemen.

Thank you for your contributions.


Best,

Robert

[BoldHighlander]

Originally Posted by ThistleDown

Good question, Brian. I take it to mean the decline, fall and rise of the kilt IN SCOTLAND, and not about any similar or dissimilar process in any other part of the world.

Wasn't trying to hijack this thread (sorry if it appeared that way), just giving an answer to a question & was in turn thinking aloud

[Micric]

I posted sometime earlier in this thread, that both Osgood Mackenzie, and Charles St John mention the kilt being worn. here are two brief quotes from C. St-John's book, "Wild sports and natural history of the Highlands" (1846)

Speaking of a group of poachers on the hill, spending a night in the heather, he says;

"...When a party of them sleep on the hillside, their manner of arranging their couch is as follows;-
If snow is on the ground, they first scrape it off a small space; they all then collect a quantity of the driest heather they can find.
The next step for all the party except one to lie down close to each other, with room between one couple for the remaining manto get into the ranks when his duty is done; which is to lay all the plaids on top of his companions, and on the plaids a quantity of long heather;
When he has sufficiently thatched them in, he creeps into the vacant space, and they are made up for the night. The coldest frost has no effect on them, when bivouacking in this manner. Their guns are laid dry between them, and their dogs share their master's couch."

End quote.
Now, I have a question!;
The plaids mentioned here; Are they the great plaids....great kilts? ore are they a kind of blanket carried by men wearing normal trousers, instead of carrying a coat?

Next quote from same auther and book, (1846);

"....I had a visit last week from a Highland poacher of some notoriety in his way.
He is the possesor of a brace of the finest deer-hounds in Scotland, and came down from his mountain-home to show them to me, as I wanted some for a friend.
The man himself is an old aquaintance of mine, as I had fallen in with him more than once in the course of my rambles."

He writes about his good looks and on how all the lassies say; Eh, but yon's a Bonnie Lad!"
.......... and goes on to say;

" he steps along the street with a good natured self satisfied swagger of a man who knows all the women are admiring him.
He is dressed in a Plain Grey Kilt and Jacket, with an otter-skin purse and a low scull cap with a long peak,....."
end quote.
.....and ends by saying he's not seen a finer fellow aywhere.

Ronald as he was called , was about 26 at the time, so not just an old leftover from an earlier age, yet it seems he wore the kilt, and knew how to! was he a rare exception? This was before the days when Queen Victoria brought kilting back into fashion.

Thanks for any answers!!

R.

[toadinakilt]

Originally Posted by Micric

" he steps along the street with a good natured self satisfied swagger of a man who knows all the women are admiring him.
He is dressed in a Plain Grey Kilt and Jacket, with an otter-skin purse and a low scull cap with a long peak,....."
end quote.
.....and ends by saying he's not seen a finer fellow aywhere.


R.

Huh, a low scull cap with a long peak... sounds like a flat cap to me!

[Micric]

Toad,
I think it was a ball-cap!!!

[cajunscot]

Several years ago there was a story on the old "Gathering of the Clans" web site about a tartan & kilt unearthed in a grave in Texas from the 1850s. Sadly, the original article is gone, but this snippet is on the Clan Laing's web site:

This is the Laing tartan as recovered from the grave of George Henry Laing who died in 1853 in East Texas. George had moved to Texas from Liberty County adjacent to the Gaelic speaking community of Darien in Georgia. James, his grandfather, had moved to The North Carolina Scottish Colony of the Cape Fear River from Scotland some time between 1745 and 1765 bringing the sett with him. The relatively dry climate and local soil conditions are accredited with the remarkable preservation of sufficient portions of his great kilt to allow the reconstruction of the sett. The Laing Tartan has been adopted as the official Clan Laing Society tartan and is registered with the Scottish Tartans World Register as STWR No. 2801

-- http://freepages.history.rootsweb.an...ety/Index.html

T.

[Woodsheal]

Originally Posted by Micric

Going back to your original questions Woodshiel;

I'd think kilts may have died out quite rapidly after the '45.
To wear one after that time, could mark a man as a "Highland rebel" ...even if he'd never been 'out'.
So, If a man Was a jackobite, he'd have a vested interest in concealing the fact, and if he Wasn't he'd not want to be implicted by dressing like one.
Makes sense to me, even if I'm wrong!

Again, the topic is the decline of the kilt as every-day wear in the Scottish highlands, not N. America...!

I don't think the above-mentioned "Highland rebel" theory works. The majority of highlanders either opposed or sat out the '45. The Jacobites' sense of grievance made out the Proscription to be worse than it was. There are plenty of Proscription-period portraits, drawings, paintings, etc. that reveal that highland dress was alive and well even before the repeal. The Act was not vigorously enforced beyond cities and towns, and non-Jacobite or neutral clans were pretty much left alone. Might an ex-Jacobite wish to conceal his past transgressions? I suppose, but that couldn't be a significant factor during the following decades.

I also find the notion odd that the kilt declined due to its impracticality. In towns and factories, sure, but in the remote and rustic Highlands themselves? Celts - known throughout Europe for their trousers! - arrived in the Scottish Highlands and switched to going bare-legged there because of the unique terrain conditions encountered, not in spite of them....

[ThistleDown]

Originally Posted by Micric

I posted sometime earlier in this thread, that both Osgood Mackenzie, and Charles St John mention the kilt being worn. here are two brief quotes from C. St-John's book, "Wild sports and natural history of the Highlands" (1846)

Speaking of a group of poachers on the hill, spending a night in the heather, he says;

"...When a party of them sleep on the hillside, their manner of arranging their couch is as follows;-
If snow is on the ground, they first scrape it off a small space; they all then collect a quantity of the driest heather they can find.
The next step for all the party except one to lie down close to each other, with room between one couple for the remaining manto get into the ranks when his duty is done; which is to lay all the plaids on top of his companions, and on the plaids a quantity of long heather;
When he has sufficiently thatched them in, he creeps into the vacant space, and they are made up for the night. The coldest frost has no effect on them, when bivouacking in this manner. Their guns are laid dry between them, and their dogs share their master's couch."

End quote.
Now, I have a question!;
The plaids mentioned here; Are they the great plaids....great kilts? ore are they a kind of blanket carried by men wearing normal trousers, instead of carrying a coat?

Next quote from same auther and book, (1846);

"....I had a visit last week from a Highland poacher of some notoriety in his way.
He is the possesor of a brace of the finest deer-hounds in Scotland, and came down from his mountain-home to show them to me, as I wanted some for a friend.
The man himself is an old aquaintance of mine, as I had fallen in with him more than once in the course of my rambles."

He writes about his good looks and on how all the lassies say; Eh, but yon's a Bonnie Lad!"
.......... and goes on to say;

" he steps along the street with a good natured self satisfied swagger of a man who knows all the women are admiring him.
He is dressed in a Plain Grey Kilt and Jacket, with an otter-skin purse and a low scull cap with a long peak,....."
end quote.
.....and ends by saying he's not seen a finer fellow aywhere.

Ronald as he was called , was about 26 at the time, so not just an old leftover from an earlier age, yet it seems he wore the kilt, and knew how to! was he a rare exception? This was before the days when Queen Victoria brought kilting back into fashion.

Thanks for any answers!!

R.

Judging by the date (1846) I would think the plaids referred to were just that, "plaids" and not great kilts or anything else. As a matter of fact this form of warm and reasonably waterproof covering was used well into the 20C, too.

The second story is wonderful and I agree entirely with you. This man was not a hold-over from a bygone era. He was, however, a poacher and lived a risky life. His bravado on entering civilisation given the nature of his "occupation", his manner of living, and his style of dress may all combine to tell us much about the man.

Rex

[ThistleDown]

Originally Posted by toadinakilt

Huh, a low scull cap with a long peak... sounds like a flat cap to me!

or an early form of ballcap? In fact, it was a fore-and-aft.

[ThistleDown]

Originally Posted by Woodsheal

Again, the topic is the decline of the kilt as every-day wear in the Scottish highlands, not N. America...!

I don't think the above-mentioned "Highland rebel" theory works. The majority of highlanders either opposed or sat out the '45. The Jacobites' sense of grievance made out the Proscription to be worse than it was. There are plenty of Proscription-period portraits, drawings, paintings, etc. that reveal that highland dress was alive and well even before the repeal. The Act was not vigorously enforced beyond cities and towns, and non-Jacobite or neutral clans were pretty much left alone. Might an ex-Jacobite wish to conceal his past transgressions? I suppose, but that couldn't be a significant factor during the following decades.

With regards to your first point, Brian, you are quite right. The vast majority of Highlanders did not participate in the last Jacobite rebellion. Your second point is not quite as accurate. Certainly the chiefs who supported the rebellion suffered greater repercussions -- initially -- than those who did not support it. but the common clansman of a non-supporter was treated just as horrifically as the clansman of a supporter.

After the initial loss of estates by supporters there were changes to the laws of the land that impacted all chiefs and, therefore, all clansmen. In effect, the new laws separated chiefs from clanspeople and put "done" to a process that had been underway and gaining momentum for well over a century: the conversion of estate owners from chiefs to landlords.

Paintings done during the years of the proscription are a fine indicator of two things: that the Proscription Act was not generally enforced, and that the wealthy whose portraits were painted were making statements. The prime one was that they were ignorant of the ultimately devastating effect other laws than the Proscription Act would have on their future.

It is important to remember, too, that these were paintings commissioned by the individuals painted, with all the implications that carries with it.

Rex