X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Freedom Kilts website Scotweb websiten Burnetts and Struth website The Scottish Trading Company
Xmarks advertising information Celtic Croft website Xmarks advertising information Celtic Corner website Xmarks advertising information

User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31
  1. #1
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,711
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Wearing of tartan coats by 42nd Regt Pipers?

    Whist working on a paper about the use of the Band Tartan by the Black Watch and others I recently uncovered reference to 42nd Regt pipers wearing tartan coats c1830-50 and have a B/W picture of an engraving c1830-40. This is the first reference I've ever encountered of military pipers wearing full tartan outfits. Anyone else come across this and more importantly, seen a colour image?

  2. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    22nd July 08
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    129
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hi! It's confused issue.
    All that I have - famous Piper Muir B/W photos (end of 1850s) and unclear color painting by Clayton (early 1850s).
    On the photo we can clearly see tartan doublet (probably in Black Watch tartan).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42nd.jpg 
Views:	29 
Size:	103.3 KB 
ID:	25726

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42ndpiper.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	110.6 KB 
ID:	25727

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42nd%20Clayton.jpg 
Views:	62 
Size:	41.8 KB 
ID:	25728

  4. The Following 4 Users say 'Aye' to blackwatch70 For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,711
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd agree that the picture of Piper Muir shows him wearing a tartan coat and, judging but the similarity in sett and tone to the kilt, I'm certainly that it's standard Government tartan.

    The Clayton picture, of which I have a slightly better resolution one, shows a plain coat IMO. The lithograph of Piper MacLean in Valetta, 1842 shows a much more interesting tartan coat, very much more fancy and typical of the late Highland Revival era. Unfortunately I only have a B&W version and am trying to find a colour one.

  6. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Join Date
    22nd July 08
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    129
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thank you, figheadair,

    Could you show the lithograph of piper MacLean in Valletta?

    a bit more information about subject.

    In 1826 Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan McGregor assumed command of 93rd Sutherland Highlanders, which he commanded until 1838. He dressed 93rd's pipers in kilt, doublet and scarf plaid of the tartan known as Rob Roy, a simple red and black check. Only in 1848 pipers reverted to the dark Government tartan worn by rest of 93rd regiment, but with scarlet doublet.
    The McGregor period is commemorated to this day by the red/black diced hose-tops still worn by the pipers of A&SH.

    So I suppose this is earliest reference of military pipers wearing full tartan outfits.

    I have no related picture, sorry...

    Regards,
    Mikhail
    Last edited by blackwatch70; 11th September 15 at 12:43 AM.

  8. The Following User Says 'Aye' to blackwatch70 For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Join Date
    22nd July 08
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    129
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    hi, figheadair,
    are you looking for this picture?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	havellprint1831.jpg 
Views:	31 
Size:	103.6 KB 
ID:	25747

    regards,
    Mikhail

  10. The Following User Says 'Aye' to blackwatch70 For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,711
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwatch70 View Post
    hi, figheadair,
    are you looking for this picture?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	havellprint1831.jpg 
Views:	31 
Size:	103.6 KB 
ID:	25747

    regards,
    Mikhail
    Mikhail, no, that is of course from Logan's 1831 Scottish Gael. What I'm looking for is a colour version of Piper MacLean done in 1842. Here's the version I have which, whilst there are similarities to Logan's print, his is somewhat fanciful whereas this one shows the correct 42nd Regt accoutrements and appears to have been taken from a drawing/painting done from life.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42nd Regt - PM John Mclean in Valletta, Malta 1842-a.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	137.7 KB 
ID:	25748
    Last edited by figheadair; 11th September 15 at 08:09 AM.

  12. The Following 3 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  13. #7
    Join Date
    6th May 12
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    505
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Excellent and interesting conversation. Thank you guys, for your contribution and scholarship.
    Ryan M. Liddell

  14. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Domehead For This Useful Post:


  15. #8
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,711
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwatch70 View Post
    In 1826 Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan McGregor assumed command of 93rd Sutherland Highlanders, which he commanded until 1838. He dressed 93rd's pipers in kilt, doublet and scarf plaid of the tartan known as Rob Roy, a simple red and black check. Only in 1848 pipers reverted to the dark Government tartan worn by rest of 93rd regiment, but with scarlet doublet.
    The McGregor period is commemorated to this day by the red/black diced hose-tops still worn by the pipers of A&SH.

    So I suppose this is earliest reference of military pipers wearing full tartan outfits.
    Mikhail,

    You are correct that this is, so far as we know, the earliest reference to military pipers wearing full tartan outfits. I'm sure that the Black Watch would have had contemporary, perhaps earlier, ones but alas, so much was lost in the fire at Balhousie in the 1970s.

  16. #9
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    8,001
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes I had long been aware of the Government tartan jackets of the Black Watch pipers, and the full Rob Roy outfits. Interesting how when you start looking for hard evidence, though, how little is to be found.

    Certainly pipers had long worn a strange variety of dress, some dressed in ornate livery having little to do with current military uniform, others dressed the same as the other soldiers, others dressed the same as the other regimental musicians (reversed colours, or white jackets, or what have you).

    So nothing would surprise me!

    What I would like to know more about is the relationship, if any, between the Black Watch pipers wearing Royal Stewart tartan, and early Black Watch musicians wearing the "music tartan".

    At some early point did Black Watch pipers wear the music tartan, or did they always wear Royal Stewart? If the pipers did wear the same tartan as the other musicians, at what point was it switched to Royal Stewart?

    To me it's interesting how many features of Highland military dress were first worn only by pipers, and later spread to the other soldiers, namely doublets, gauntlet cuffs, Inverness skirts, Glengarry bonnets, and dark green jackets. Today the entire Scottish infantry wears the Glengarries and dark green doublets of the Cameron Highlanders pipers of the 1840s.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 12th September 15 at 06:01 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  17. #10
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,711
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Yes I had long been aware of the Government tartan jackets of the Black Watch pipers, and the full Rob Roy outfits. Interesting how when you start looking for hard evidence, though, how little is to be found.
    Richard, I was wondering when you would join in and add your knowledge. As you suggest, lots of snippets and references but it's only when one starts to look for the evidence that things get tricky.

    What I would like to know more about is the relationship, if any, between the Black Watch pipers wearing Royal Stewart tartan, and early Black Watch musicians wearing the "music tartan".

    At some early point did Black Watch pipers wear the music tartan, or did they always wear Royal Stewart? If the pipers did wear the same tartan as the other musicians, at what point was it switched to Royal Stewart?
    Stewart of Garth stated that the 42nd pipers wore a red tartan from the formation of the regiment; he assumed that that was the Royal Stewart. Logan said that they wore the tartan later adopted by the Band. In each case there is absolutely no evidence to support these claims. I can trace the Band tartan to 1780 and feel that it was probably a Wilsons' sett.

    The pipers seem to have worn a variety of tartans in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, possibly including the Band sett. They were granted permission to wear the Royal Stewart by Queen Victoria in 1865 after which they only ever wore that and the Band tartan fell out of use entirely. My paper is nearly finished and discusses this and the use by the 93rd too.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0