X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Freedom Kilts website Scotweb websiten Burnetts and Struth website The Scottish Trading Company
Xmarks advertising information Celtic Croft website Xmarks advertising information Celtic Corner website Xmarks advertising information

User Tag List

Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,632
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Who were the Zeughaus Highlanders

    I was sent this a couple of years ago. The annotation is that of my source with whom I corresponded at the time but who is currently off-line for a while in somewhere hot and sandy.



    The outfit appears to be a genuine C18th/early C19th one with the tartan corresponding to some of Wilsons' early military material.

    Try as I can I cannot find other images of this which I understand was in a/the Berlin Museum pre-war. Anyone come across other images or know anything of the Zeughaus Highlanders? I'd love a colour image.
    Last edited by figheadair; 9th November 10 at 06:42 AM. Reason: More info

  2. #2
    Join Date
    27th April 09
    Location
    Herndon, VA
    Posts
    192
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The only information I can give you is a translation. From the German I know, Zeughaus is the military term for an armory/arsenal. You mentioned a pre-war museum in Berlin, which may further the connection. "Das Zeughaus" is a German historical museum in Berlin that use to be, you guessed it, the artillery arsenal.

    I can't remember the exact dates, but I know it was both a museum before and after the WWs. So the use of Zeughaus could mean a number of things. They might have been some kind of Scotch guard for the arsenal, although I've never heard mention of such a thing. If the uniform was actually housed in the Zeughaus museum, it's also entirely possible that the name is merely a reflection of it's location.
    Last edited by YoungMan; 9th November 10 at 08:06 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    5th June 09
    Location
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Short Highland Coat

    I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

    http://www.oocities.com/pnw_84rhe/Uniform.htm
    And so I sing with lyric lilt,--
    How happier the world would be
    If every male would wear a kilt!
    Robert Service

  4. #4
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,632
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    [QUOTE=vinhen2;925848]I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

    Yes, that's the same oat. You'll see that it mentions that it was lost during the war.

    The original picture is interesting. I presume it's pre-war and from the museum display and shows that the staff didn't unstand how to put on the bleted plaid.

    I know that the collection had some other jackets including a Napoleonic Guards' (Coldstream I think) that was discovered in a barn somewhere in Germany in 1945 by an Guards officer that recognised the buttons. This suggests that the collection was either dispersed for safe keeping an/or looted so goodness knows if the highland outfit survived.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    22nd March 07
    Location
    In Doors
    Posts
    750
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

    Frank.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,632
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Logan View Post
    This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

    Frank.
    It's not really my area of expertise but I somehow doubt it. The tartan would be correct but the jacket should have have 71st buttons which this one doesn't.

    N.B The 71st disbanded in Perth in 1783.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    22nd March 07
    Location
    In Doors
    Posts
    750
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    It's not really my area of expertise but I somehow doubt it. The tartan would be correct but the jacket should have have 71st buttons which this one doesn't.

    N.B The 71st disbanded in Perth in 1783.
    This is a large copy of the picture, but I still am unable to read the button numbers. And you are correct on the disbandment date. My 5th great grandfather was mustered out of the 71st and transfered to the Royal Garrison Battalion in Bermudia, and they were disbanded in 1784.

    Frank

  8. #8
    Join Date
    23rd May 06
    Location
    Far NW Corner of Washington State, USA (48 45' 51.5808" N / -122 30' 36.6228" W)
    Posts
    5,714
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by vinhen2 View Post
    I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

    http://www.oocities.com/pnw_84rhe/Uniform.htm
    Interesting...I thought the website "went away" when geocities closed down the free websites. I created this website when I was attempting to organize a company for the NA84RA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Logan View Post
    This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

    Frank.
    It's possible as the jacket in the photo appears to have white facings (71st) rather than dk blue (84th).

    For the record, the recreated 84th RoF (including the 5th Coy website listed above) *never* claimed this jacket as one having belonged to the 84th, but as a period example of a Highland Regts short coat.
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    23rd May 06
    Location
    Far NW Corner of Washington State, USA (48 45' 51.5808" N / -122 30' 36.6228" W)
    Posts
    5,714
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    The original picture is interesting. I presume it's pre-war and from the museum display and shows that the staff didn't unstand how to put on the bleted plaid.
    As I recall Peter, the photo was a glass plate (I believe that there might be other angles taken, but I have not seen them).

    Not sure when glass plate photos went out of fashion, but that might give a clue to the age of the photo(?).

    My other question, for the photo experts out there, I know that some early forms of photography made certain clothing colours look lighter in appearance.
    Would the glass plate process make dark blue appear lighter/white?

    If it did, then I'd have to ask about the lacing on the coat (would the glass plate process affect its colour too?), as both the 71st & the 84th had white lacing with a red worm (actually the 84th had blue & red worm on their lacing).

    At any rate thanks for posting this photo Peter. I've heard of it but I don't recall ever seening it before now!
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Crieff, Perthshire
    Posts
    3,632
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post

    My other question, for the photo experts out there, I know that some early forms of photography made certain clothing colours look lighter in appearance.
    Would the glass plate process make dark blue appear lighter/white?

    If it did, then I'd have to ask about the lacing on the coat (would the glass plate process affect its colour too?), as both the 71st & the 84th had white lacing with a red worm (actually the 84th had blue & red worm on their lacing).

    You're right about the visual effects that old B&W photography has on colours but in answer to your question here; unless the facings were pale blue and so appear white then they are/were truly white, buff or yellow in this outfit. Look at the tartan where the blue in the appear lighter than the green but still not white. As the black has not similarly lightened I take this to mean that the blue here was indeed a mid and not dark navy which would be wholly consistent with the blues of C18th military setts. This would even more so if this was dyed with Logwood which was often the cheaper choice of blue for British Other Ranks in whereas Officers' blue was dyes with indigo giving a purer, deeper and lasting blue.

    Without a scale or some other reference it's difficult to work out quite what's going on with the tartan. Working from my book on the 1819 counts the guy who annotated the image determined that the length had been put on upside down hence his selvedge mark comment top left. If that were the case then this would be a piece of unjoined offset plaiding used on the mannequin as an unsewn feileadh beag. If we assume for a moment that this is Wilsons' cloth then their 42nd type plaiding (42nd, 78th, 92nd etc) was 26-26.5" wide depending on regt and rank (Offrs, Sergts or ORs) and finished with a black selvedge mark. Unfortunately the top section in the picture is far from clear and I cannot work what's going on after the 'last green' but there's certain more than a selvedge mark.

    Another possibility is that this is not plaiding by coarse kilt material which was wider and had more repeats.

    Looking at the front there are loose pleats below the sporran but the appear flatter (sewn?) above and then there is a flat, unpleated section. I wonder if this is in fact a feileadh beag with the added flat piece intended to fold down over a belt? Intriguing.

Similar Threads

  1. The Highlanders Of Scotland
    By OC Richard in forum The Library
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 19th July 10, 01:37 PM
  2. WWI Highlanders
    By macbheatha in forum Historical Kilt Wear
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 6th June 10, 02:47 PM
  3. Dhl Highlanders 3rd Highlandgames
    By dhlhighlan in forum Highland Games and Celtic Event Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11th February 10, 12:51 PM
  4. The last of the Highlanders
    By herminator in forum Miscellaneous Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11th September 07, 03:01 PM
  5. Highlanders
    By cgordon in forum General Kilt Talk
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 20th May 04, 09:32 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0