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  1. #11
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    I should rephrase. What I mean is that if you want the look that people tend to associate with old tartans which may have used older dyeing techniques, weathered is the way to go. Muted can be another option (although muted tartans are much less available than weathered ones, from what I've seen). That's why they make these tartan color choices... to lend an air of antiquity. Right?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    I should rephrase. What I mean is that if you want the look that people tend to associate with old tartans which may have used older dyeing techniques, weathered is the way to go. Muted can be another option (although muted tartans are much less available than weathered ones, from what I've seen). That's why they make these tartan color choices... to lend an air of antiquity. Right?
    Not really. It's albout marketing and market share rather than anything as altruistic as trying to lean an air of antiquity.

    I have images of dozens pre-1800 specimens and not one of them looks anything like Reproduction or Weathered colours with the exception of the original Ulster tartan. That one we know for certain was dug up in a bog. What we're not really sure about is what the original colours were.

  3. #13
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    Not really. It's albout marketing and market share rather than anything as altruistic as trying to lean an air of antiquity.
    I never claimed it was altruistic. Of course it's about marketing. People want tartans that look old, and that's what ancient/weathered/muted give them. The mills make money from people who want that look. The point is, people associate those colors with age and more historical techniques.

    You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not claiming that these color schemes are trying to be historically accurate to a specific tartan color from bygone days. I'm saying that dyes inevitably fade over time, as they are washed and exposed to sunlight. That's scientific fact. And people who want a tartan that looks like it's been around for a long time will go with ancient/weathered color schemes in order to achieve the look of an old piece of tartan.

    These pre-1800 specimens you refer to... were they actually used in regular life by people, or are they specimens that have remained indoors (perhaps in a sample book), away from sunlight, not exposed to sweat and dirt and soap and blood and war? You know as well as I do that even modern dyes will fade and discolor with hard use and age, and older dyes did too. That's what we're talking about here, not a museum article that's been indoors for two centuries. The ancient/weathered colors may not be a perfect representation of age-old dyes on new cloth, but they give people the visual effect of them being old and worn and weathered.

  4. #14
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    These colour options do help us "one clan tartan only" types, no end though.

  5. #15
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    I am aware of one specimen from the days before aniline dyes that reasonably closely resembles the hues of modern "ancient" tartans. It is a Ross tartan suit, made for the occasion of George IV's visit to Scotland in 1822. Presumably it has faded somewhat from its original colors, but to what extent I do not know.

    The suit was taken to Australia in 1864. It was later "repatriated" to Scotland and put on public display, but I don't know when it arrived back in Scotland. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the suit's return to Scotland and the emergence of tartans in the "ancient" colors, although there are, no doubt, other tartan specimens that could have fulfilled that role.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morris at Heathfield View Post
    I am aware of one specimen from the days before aniline dyes that reasonably closely resembles the hues of modern "ancient" tartans. It is a Ross tartan suit, made for the occasion of George IV's visit to Scotland in 1822. Presumably it has faded somewhat from its original colors, but to what extent I do not know.

    The suit was taken to Australia in 1864. It was later "repatriated" to Scotland and put on public display, but I don't know when it arrived back in Scotland. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the suit's return to Scotland and the emergence of tartans in the "ancient" colors, although there are, no doubt, other tartan specimens that could have fulfilled that role.
    An interesting photo and one that I'd not seen before. Thank you for posting. Like most such outfits it was probably notmade for the visit of KGIV as there was only six weeks notice. It is a classic Highland Revival/Regency outfit c1820-30 in cloth almost certainly from Messrs Wm Wilson & Son of Banncockburn. That said, there's something strange about the colouration on this picture/material and in particular the blue. By that time Wilsons' standard blue was produced from indigo which is practically light fast irrespective of exposure as is red from cochineal. The differences in red in this picture suggest poor lighting/image quality. Green was the one major colour used by Wilsons that used to fade and that was because it was a combination dye made from blue and yellow dyes and so there was always the postential to fade particularly the less the weight of blue.

    Either the blue in this was not indigo (Wilsons previously used Logwood to give a dark purple and that does fade) or the picture is defective. It's certainly not good enough to be able to determine how it's faded. Another thing to go and check first hand.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not claiming that these color schemes are trying to be historically accurate to a specific tartan color from bygone days. I'm saying that dyes inevitably fade over time, as they are washed and exposed to sunlight. That's scientific fact. And people who want a tartan that looks like it's been around for a long time will go with ancient/weathered color schemes in order to achieve the look of an old piece of tartan.
    No, no, I do understand. The point I was trying to make is that natural dyes don't fade uniformly in the way that chemical dyes do. When I get a moment I'll post some pics to emonstrate the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    These pre-1800 specimens you refer to... were they actually used in regular life by people, or are they specimens that have remained indoors (perhaps in a sample book), away from sunlight, not exposed to sweat and dirt and soap and blood and war? You know as well as I do that even modern dyes will fade and discolor with hard use and age, and older dyes did too. That's what we're talking about here, not a museum article that's been indoors for two centuries. The ancient/weathered colors may not be a perfect representation of age-old dyes on new cloth, but they give people the visual effect of them being old and worn and weathered.
    I have examples of both although I'm not sure I could say for certain that many have been used in war. Again, I'll post pics when I get I get time but the point remains that ancient/reproduction/weathered colours are not a very good representation of how old worn cloth looks.

  8. #18
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
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    Here is an example of an older kilt that has actually faded with time. In this case, this is a Kennedy kilt, dating probably to the early twentieth century. These would have been chemical dyes (not natural), but still show how fading can occur. A kilt such as this most likely was the inspiration for the "modern/ancient" color scheme distinctions now used by the tartan mills.

    Here are the pleats:


    Opening the pleats to see the original colors:


    The faded outer apron laying across the non-faded inner apron.


    And for the sake of comparison, here are three modern samples of the Kennedy tartan in the modern, ancient, and weathered colors (in this case woven by Lochcarron).

  9. #19
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    the weathered actually looks closer to the faded one then the ancient

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetley88mark View Post
    the weathered actually looks closer to the faded one then the ancient
    That is precisely what weathered tartans are supposed to do. They are intended to represent the fading of time/weather/wear, and in Matt's example it's almost a perfect job.

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