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  1. #1
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    Cooper weathered/reproduction?

    Cooper is a lovely tartan and I have Cooper ancestry.

    My question is, does anyone weave Cooper in Weathered or Reproduction Colours?

    Googling didn't turn up anything except this, "zero choices"

    https://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/id/449415

    (Cooper Ancient)



    PS I do wonder how the purple would be rendered in Weathered Colours.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 25th October 19 at 06:09 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  2. #2
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    I'm sure that both Lochcarron and DC Dalgliesh would weave it in their respective standard weathered/reproduction colour schemes, even if they don't carry it in stock. There would be a wait, of course, but I wouldn't think either would charge it as a custom weave since it is already a tartan they carry, and a colour scheme they produce. So there shouldn't be any custom design or dyeing to be done. They'd just have to set up the loom and do it with their standard pattern and yarns. Of course, you'd have to get someone with a trade account to check with them, and there may be a minimum yardage requirement to make a run of it.

    And of course Andrew Elliot Ltd. could do it, though it would most likely be a custom weave. I've found this to be the best option, since customising the order (selvedge, etc.) is no problem.

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  4. #3
    Join Date
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    It's not a stock tartan but if D.C. Dalgleish wove it, it would look like this. Purple as in Old Colours.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cooper_Family_Reproduction_Colours_Pure_New_Wool_15.jpg 
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  6. #4
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    Just a note to clear up something.

    The weavers I work with use the term "Custom Run" to mean anytime they have to warp a loom that they do not have the intent of weaving a full bolt of fabric.

    A full bolt can be anywhere from just under a hundred - to many thousand - meters at once. Fabrics woven like this are what are called "Stock Runs". Any fabric not immediately shipped is put on a shelf as 'Stock'.

    Anytime a customer requests an amount of fabric that requires the loom to be re-warped for a single, or shorter run, is a Custom Run. Even if the mill already has the yarn in the color requested. Even if the pattern already exists. The work is in the warping of the loom, not the color or pattern of the yarns used.

    Some mills have looms that can be warped to produce small lengths of fabric and some looms must weave quite a large amount just to break even on the warping labor costs. A couple of the Mills will weave a custom run of just 11 meters and at least one mill requires a minimum of 36 meters just to offset the labor costs to warp the loom.

    I think you can begin to see that if it requires the same labor to warp a loom - The more fabric you weave before re-warping - the lower or more pro-rated the final cost per meter can be.

    This explains why any custom run will cost more per meter, than a stock run of many hundred meters. The labor to warp the loom is the same and it requires the same amount of yarn per meter, so you save by spreading out the warping cost.

    Please expect, today, that any custom run will cost just about twice per meter, of fabric woven for a stock run.
    For example one weaver prices their custom runs by how much yardage you ask for. The minimum is 11 meters so 11-14 meters is 44.29 - 25-39 meters lowers the price per meter to 31.69 - and so on up to 63 meters where the price per meter is down to 20.44.
    The same fabric in the same Tartan and color woven as a stock run will be down to 16.62.
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

  7. #5
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    Good points, Steve. I suppose what I was thinking of was a "design fee" that some will charge for a custom tartan design that requires up-front work by them to figure out thread counts, centering the pattern on the loom, etc. I was thinking that a standard tartan with standard yarns would be something that they already have worked out for their loom, and it would require no custom design on their part. But you're right: it will still be a premium for setting up the loom just for that limited length as a custom run.

  8. #6
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    Again Tobus, there may be more than one factor here.

    Anyone can design a Tartan. The on-line design programs will automatically create the design (Warp and Weft) from the colors you choose and the number of yarns of each color.

    But - Not every Tartan design will make an attractive kilt and some do not work for pleating at all. There are some totally hideous designs out there. All you have to do is have a look though the thousands of designs at places like ScotWeb's Tartan designer program.

    So you now need a kiltmaker to look at the design with a experienced makers eye. Will the design look good when pleated? Will it look too busy or too plain when made up into a kilt? Will the pleats, and their width, look the way the original designer intended? Will the design create problems for the kiltmaker when they taper the pleats? Or - is the Sett size appropriate for a kilt kilt? etc. A good quote from one kiltmaker is appropriate - "It's not the cost of the fabric, the thread and to keep my electricity bill paid that you are paying for. - It's the years I spent learning and perfecting my craft that you are paying for."

    Then the thread count is give to the weaver and they may need to make further slight alterations to the thread count to center the design on the loom or to get one stripe a particular distance from a selvedge edge or to create a given sett size. This is one of the reasons for the rule of thumb that says a Tartan does not have a stripe of just one thread. That design cannot be halved by the weaver if needed.

    The designing on one of the on-line programs is usually free and anyone can try their hand at designing a Tartan.
    Where the cost comes in is having a kiltmaker design a Tartan that will look good when made up.
    The weavers part is usually included in the cost of the finished fabric. There would be some cases where the weaver may ask for a slight up charge of course but those are fairly rare.

    So, someone who asks for a professional to create the design may be charged. $350.00 to $450.00 is about the average fee for a professional design.
    Then if the person wishes to list their design on The Scottish Register of Tartan there is a fee. Currently that fee is 40.00 and there are some additional fees as applicable.
    Then you approach a weaver to have the design woven. I have already given examples of some of those costs.
    Add shipping taxes and duties on the fabric depending on where you live.
    If you wish to protect your design with Copyright there may be further costs depending on where the Copyright is awarded. A Copyright in only one country will be significantly less than an international Copyright which usually requires a Copyright lawyer with additional costs.

    Then, and only then are we talking about the cost to have a kilt made from your woven fabric from your listed design. (See the quote above)

    The ultimate and final cost of a kilt in a custom design has ended more than one marriage. And saved a few others.
    Steve Ashton
    Forum Owner

  9. #7
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    Thanks for all the information.

    If Cooper weathered/reproduction isn't currently available as a stock tartan I will have to pass on it.

    It seems that Old Stewart weathered/reproduction is in the same situation; Lochcarron used to carry it, but evidently no longer.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  10. #8
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    10th August 19
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    Excellent information, Steve

    In line with what you were saying about custom runs, I inquired of Lochcarron about a year ago about obtaining some cloth in their “weathered Lamont” tartan in the “Reiver” weight as I thought that in might make for a smart looking waistcoat and/or necktie, and all that the mill currently produces is the heavier “strome” weight cloth. I was told at that time that the minimum run would be for 11 meters, and the costs would be in the neighborhood of 85 per meter.
    David
    Last edited by Digger1; 30th October 19 at 06:53 AM.

  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    If Cooper weathered/reproduction isn't currently available as a stock tartan I will have to pass on it.
    If price and/or minimum length is an issue, might you consider going in on a bulk order with others who would be interested in some of it as well? Similar to what they did with the wildcat tartan, Peter's Culloden tartan, etc. It wouldn't take but a few interested parties pooling their resources to get a decent break on the price.

  12. #10
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    You might save money going with Marton Mills. See the sticky at the top of this sub forum.

    I don't have a problem using an Enlish weaver over a Scottish weaver unless you just want to spend more. MM was very good to deal with.
    Benning School for Boys
    97th Company
    OC 5-68

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