[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

I'm very surprised by how many variations one can get, especially with such a simple "undifferenced" shield.



I also think the difference between billettey and compony is more immediately obvious than the difference between chequey and compony counter compony. So, for those who may be following along (and who are visual learners like I am), here's the same chart with the "mystery" shield filled in.
(I assumed it would still be a bordure divided per pale even though MacMillan of Rathdown didn't say so in his description, so please tell me if it's incorrect and I can modify it.)

This is spot on. Now imagine the next generation with their bordures ratched 90* around to the right, with the top half of the shields white with the bottom half "coloured". Another generation and imagine the shields with quartered bordures. That's 13 distinct families descending from the third son of the original armiger before altering the line of partition on the bordure. PHEW!

And to think John Stodart did this before the invention of computers.

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

This is spot on. Now imagine the next generation with their bordures ratched 90* around to the right, with the top half of the shields white with the bottom half "coloured". Another generation and imagine the shields with quartered bordures. That's 13 distinct families descending from the third son of the original armiger before altering the line of partition on the bordure. PHEW!

And to think John Stodart did this before the invention of computers.

To quote one of Basil Rathbone's cronies in The Court Jester: "The man [was] pure genius."

I have TONS of other questions, but I feel I can wait until the book that you so kindly recommended arrives and look for answers there before bringing them here. This decision may have something to do with the fact that different lines of partition are much harder for me to draw than bordures!

Thank you, Scott and Sandy, for humouring me; your responses and the time you took to provide them are greatly appreciated!

[Cygnus]

Heraldic Cadency arrived yesterday (the parcel was actually left in the ditch in front of the mailbox - something the Postal Service will hear about today), and I read half of it before going to bed last night.

It's a very informative read and, not being as adept and constructing a coat of arms simply from reading the blazon, I appreciate the many illustrations that it provides.

I now have two more questions:

1. Gayre states that the label argent is reserved for members of the Royal Family in English heraldry; does this carry over into Scottish Heraldry? (I'm curious because I used a couple of labels argent in my examples above and nobody corrected me.)

2. What other books do you recommend for somebody interested in the subject of heraldry?

Thank you!

[JSFMACLJR]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

[U]I now have two more questions:

1. Gayre states that the label argent is reserved for members of the Royal Family in English heraldry; does this carry over into Scottish Heraldry? (I'm curious because I used a couple of labels argent in my examples above and nobody corrected me.)

2. What other books do you recommend for somebody interested in the subject of heraldry?

Thank you!

1. I think a label Argent is permitted in Scotland, unlike in England where it is reserved to the Royal Family. I could be wrong, though!

2. Do you have a copy of Scots Heraldry, by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney? Of course you should!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

Heraldic Cadency arrived yesterday and I read half of it before going to bed last night.

It's a very informative read and, not being as adept and constructing a coat of arms simply from reading the blazon, I appreciate the many illustrations that it provides.

I now have two more questions:

1. Gayre states that the label argent is reserved for members of the Royal Family in English heraldry; does this carry over into Scottish Heraldry? (I'm curious because I used a couple of labels argent in my examples above and nobody corrected me.)

Hmm. This is a bit of a head scratcher, but I suspect that the answer is probably "yes" and "no". With respect to the Royal Arms of the United Kingdom the white label would be used. However, with respect to the Royal Arms of Scotland, I note that HRH Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesy and Lord of the Isles, displays a blue label of three points (at least on his banner). This leads me to believe, and I could very well be wrong, that Lyon follows the normal practice of choosing a colour (or metal) that will be easily seen on the field, and which follows the usual hierarchy of yellow, white, red, blue, etc. Now it very well may be that he skips white out of respect for the Royal tradition, but I couldn't say so with any authority. However, since Gayre-- a real stickler for heraldic exactitude-- refers to this as an English custom (without mention of a similar Scottish heraldic practice) I suspect white may be used, as in the examples you posted.

Originally Posted by Cygnus

2. What other books do you recommend for somebody interested in the subject of heraldry?

A quick count shows that my "working heraldic library" runs to about fifty volumes... just on the subject of heraldry. Here's my pick for ten books you might want to read:

1. The Art of Heraldry by Arthur Fox-Davies (a go to "standard work" on the subject)
2. Simple Heraldry by (Sir) Iain Moncreiff (of that Ilk) and Don Pottinger (the primer for Scottish heraldry)
3. Scottish Heraldry by Mark Dennis (the perfect follow-on to Moncrieff and Pottenger's excellent book)
4. A New Dictionary of Heraldry by Stephen Friar (exactly what it says it is, a well illustrated dictionary)
5. Basic Heraldry by Stephen Friar and John Ferguson (heraldry, but more from an English perspective)
6. The Complete Book of Heraldry by Stephen Slater (an international history of heraldry-- excellent)
7. Heraldic Cadency by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (which you have)
8. The Nature of Arms by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (excellent)
9. Heraldic Standards by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (outstanding)
10. The Pursuivant of Arms by Planche (one of the "classic" tomes on heraldry)

Hope that rounds out your Christmas list!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

The top bar of a lable of three, five, or seven points should extend from one side of the shield to the other. If it is cut off on either side of the points it become a "file" which is used to indicate a senior line passed over in favour of a junior line. (Files are usually depicted has having their points "dovetailed", while labels have longer, straight sided points.)

Now his rarely happens, but as a coat of arms is the personal property of the armiger, he may, within the terms of the destination of the original grant, choose to leave his undifferenced arms to someone other than his eldest male child. When this happens a file of three points is added as a permanent charge on the shield of the person passed over (in the instance of a Scottish chief a different cadency mark-- three eagle feathers-- is used) and the designated heir inherits the undifferenced arms. All other children retain their normal cadency mark.

In the examples shown above in both instances a label of yellow, or white would be appropriate.

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR

...
2. Do you have a copy of Scots Heraldry, by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney? Of course you should!

It has been added to the list!

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

Hmm. This is a bit of a head scratcher, but I suspect that the answer is probably "yes" and "no". With respect to the Royal Arms of the United Kingdom the white label would be used. However, with respect to the Royal Arms of Scotland, I note that HRH Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesy and Lord of the Isles, displays a blue label of three points (at least on his banner). This leads me to believe, and I could very well be wrong, that Lyon follows the normal practice of choosing a colour (or metal) that will be easily seen on the field, and which follows the usual hierarchy of yellow, white, red, blue, etc. Now it very well may be that he skips white out of respect for the Royal tradition, but I couldn't say so with any authority. However, since Gayre-- a real stickler for heraldic exactitude-- refers to this as an English custom (without mention of a similar Scottish heraldic practice) I suspect white may be used, as in the examples you posted.

That's good to know.

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

A quick count shows that my "working heraldic library" runs to about fifty volumes... just on the subject of heraldry. Here's my pick for ten books you might want to read:

1. The Art of Heraldry by Arthur Fox-Davies (a go to "standard work" on the subject)
2. Simple Heraldry by (Sir) Iain Moncreiff (of that Ilk) and Don Pottinger (the primer for Scottish heraldry)
3. Scottish Heraldry by Mark Dennis (the perfect follow-on to Moncrieff and Pottenger's excellent book)
4. A New Dictionary of Heraldry by Stephen Friar (exactly what it says it is, a well illustrated dictionary)
5. Basic Heraldry by Stephen Friar and John Ferguson (heraldry, but more from an English perspective)
6. The Complete Book of Heraldry by Stephen Slater (an international history of heraldry-- excellent)
7. Heraldic Cadency by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (which you have)
8. The Nature of Arms by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (excellent)
9. Heraldic Standards by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (outstanding)
10. The Pursuivant of Arms by Planche (one of the "classic" tomes on heraldry)

Hope that rounds out your Christmas list!

It does indeed! Thank you!

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

The top bar of a lable of three, five, or seven points should extend from one side of the shield to the other. If it is cut off on either side of the points it become a "file" which is used to indicate a senior line passed over in favour of a junior line. (Files are usually depicted has having their points "dovetailed", while labels have longer, straight sided points.)

...

I actually noticed that Gayre stated as much in his book, my assumption that the file and the label were interchangeable came from some examples I'd seen where it had been used in this way (such as Romilly Squire of Rubislaw's book plate).

Thanks again for all of your assistance, Scott and Sandy!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Labels and files aren't quite the same thing in their application, and probably shouldn't be considered interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Cygnus

I actually noticed that Gayre stated as much in his book, my assumption that the file and the label were interchangeable came from some examples I'd seen where it had been used in this way (such as Romilly Squire of Rubislaw's book plate).

I suspect that Romilly's use of the file in this instance is based on purely artistic motives-- which is to be expected given that he is one of the world's top heraldic artists.