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  1. #11
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    The clearances of course were throughout the UK and Ireland
    You are right, of course, and this seems one of the premises of the book. There is an almost religious belief that only the Highlands of Scotland were affected in this way and, like all such beliefs it is likely that contradictory opinions will not be well received. We could say a similar thing about the potato famine in Ireland but a very similar famine happened in the Hebrides and western Highlands in the 1840s and resulted in much emigration, mostly to Canada, although less starvation due to charitable contributions from the rest of the country.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    The clearances of course were throughout the UK and Ireland, different times and in some cases different reasons. Like the Village of Imber in Wiltshire evicted in 1943, for WW2 and promised they would come back... They never were allowed back.
    The area I live in now in Norfolk was enclosed in 1812, many using the common land were left with nothing for their way of life..
    Let's not forget the Levellers either....

    Exploitation of the poorer disenfranchised classes by the wealthier more powerful ones is not a phenomenon contained just within Scotland or Ireland...

    That said I also think sometimes the revisionist aspect of history also acredits and blames natural disasters such as crop failure upon the wealthier classes for some reason and does ignore the efforts made by some wealthy individuals to aleviate their suffering...again there's a political agenda. Also the tendency to view the wealthy individuals as outsiders rather than acknowledging they had as much pedigree attachimg them to that area as anyone else...

    I guess we even see it at the moment with the focus on the sufferage for women without recognising that a significant proportion of men fighting and getting wounded or dying (some of the wounded ones on returning home on being seen out of uniforms were even given white feathers by Ladies ignorant of what they'd done already) also weren't enfranchised. Not saying that female sufferage isn't worthy of commemoration but let's have a recognition that other people made sacrifices and died to win their share of the vote too - their contribution to our society and their changes are no less important...

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    You are right, of course, and this seems one of the premises of the book. There is an almost religious belief that only the Highlands of Scotland were affected in this way and, like all such beliefs it is likely that contradictory opinions will not be well received. We could say a similar thing about the potato famine in Ireland but a very similar famine happened in the Hebrides and western Highlands in the 1840s and resulted in much emigration, mostly to Canada, although less starvation due to charitable contributions from the rest of the country.
    But wasn't there also some wealthy woman who arranged for food to be sent to Ireland to alleviate the famine there...what was her name?.....Victoria?....

  5. #14
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    But wasn't there also some wealthy woman who arranged for food to be sent to Ireland to alleviate the famine there...what was her name?.....Victoria?....
    I think you may have been watching too many TV programmes. Queen Victoria certainly did donate something like £1000 to famine relief but, given the size of the problem this would be nothing more than a drop on the ocean. Attitudes in Victorian times were perhaps less humanitarian than nowadays and many considered such disasters were natures way of addressing overpopulation, hence the less than adequate response towards those starving. Added to this was a historical prejudice towards a disaffected Catholic population in Ireland and this probably affected the overall support given by the rest of the British Isles.

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdinSteve View Post
    I think you may have been watching too many TV programmes. Queen Victoria certainly did donate something like £1000 to famine relief but, given the size of the problem this would be nothing more than a drop on the ocean. Attitudes in Victorian times were perhaps less humanitarian than nowadays and many considered such disasters were natures way of addressing overpopulation, hence the less than adequate response towards those starving. Added to this was a historical prejudice towards a disaffected Catholic population in Ireland and this probably affected the overall support given by the rest of the British Isles.
    No it wasn't from a TVprogram it was something I'd read abeit online... And £1000 then was worth considerably more than it is now. Probably more like at least £10,000 these days.

    I wouldn't agree about the blanket view Victorian attitudes as there's probably more evidence of a philanthtopic culture thrn than there is now especially given the lack of welfare state. Maybe it was more a case of out of sight out of mind?... Or it actually being more widespread than just Ireland but it's got ceased upon by so called nationalists yet another thing to hold against "the English" in much the way that the 45 and ttheclearanve of the highlands have in Scotland.

    As for the historic predjudice towards Catholics let's face it was a case of the boot has been on the other foot through history as well... But for some reason recent popular history only seems to bring up persecution of Catholics by Protestants rarely the other way. Solway Martyrs anyone?.... I don't hold withbreligious persecution but I think you have to understand the bigger picture when looking at it in history. Much like the post 45 reprisals...
    Last edited by Allan Thomson; 12th October 18 at 08:37 AM.

  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Scott View Post
    The Book Depository (UK based) has it and they offer free delivery world-wide:
    https://www.bookdepository.com/Scott...6986690&sr=1-2
    Thanks for the link, one of my kids has just bought me a Christmas present. At least I'll have something to read when the Xmas reruns are on.

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  10. #17
    EdinSteve is offline Membership Suspended for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    Or it actually being more widespread than just Ireland but it's got ceased upon by so called nationalists yet another thing to hold against "the English" in much the way that the 45 and ttheclearanve of the highlands have in Scotland. But for some reason recent popular history only seems to bring up persecution of Catholics by Protestants rarely the other way.
    I think we may be stepping over political lines here by bringing “nationalists” and “the English” into the discussion because I really don’t believe that “the English” were instrumental in the Clearances or that “nationalists” seek to use this as a stick to beat that particular dead horse. The Clearances which is the subject of this post were part of a movement away from the land towards an industrialised, urban country which resulted in Britain becoming the foremost industrial nation at the time. As another has said, agrarian clearances were a feature in other parts of the UK and the Industrial Revolution which precipitated this was the result. It may even be that landowners struggled to get the rents that sustained them when enterprising people deserted the land for more lucrative jobs in cities. Of course other events such as the potato famine accelerated this move away from the land but to attribute blame to “the English” is not, in my view sustainable.

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverkilt View Post
    Sadly, apparently not up on U.S. Amazon yet....
    'Tis now:

    https://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Clea...r_1_fkmrnull_1

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  14. #19
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    Thanks, just ordered it up.
    Ol' Macdonald himself, a proud son of Skye and Cape Breton Island
    Lifetime Member STA. Two time winner of Utilikiltarian of the Month.
    "I'll have a kilt please, a nice hand sewn tartan, 16 ounce Strome. Oh, and a sporran on the side, with a strap please."

  15. #20
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    Another for those interested in the subject of Highland migration in the 18th and 19th Centuries: The People's Clearance 1770-1815. Prof. J.M. Bumsted. University of Edinburgh Press, 1982. Synopsis: A revisionist account of the first phase of Highland Scottish emigration to Canada. 'Improving landlords' were threatening traditional social and cultural life in the Highlands and many of the more affluent Highlanders -- the tacksmen and substantial tenants -- emigrated of their own accord. Analysis: It is important to recognise and understand that it was as much a desire for their own 'improvement' that led many Highlanders and others to seek a life elsewhere in the Empire. In this phase many landowners tried to keep their tenants at home. When the trend overwhelmed them, there were Highland landlords who bankrupted themselves and their posterity rather than evict those who had become, by law, their tenants and no longer their friends and family.
    Last edited by ThistleDown; 13th October 18 at 07:20 PM. Reason: clarity

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