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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis View Post
    Very regimental, Din, very regimental, indeed! Muskets of the Crown?

    I have a completely functional 77th jacket and waistcoat that I'll probably never wear again. The only reason I still have it is because a friend made it for me.

    Also, after much study I've theorized that the 77th was probably an unlaced regiment (possibly except the grenadier company and musicians) until 1759, when the Board of General Officers compelled the 77th and 78th regiments to adopt regimental lace and lapels. Anyway, there it is, for whatever it's worth.
    The piper to my right and I are in Graham's Company of the 42nd, the Piper to my left is from MotC,

    Im just moving into the the Drummer's spot in this unit, making a new coat as well as Drummers cap for that, as the cap Im wearing is actually a 78th Cap.

    Given that there are all the images and even tailor bills for 77th officers showing lapels were worn by all officers from the very beginning, and the 77th not being censured like the 42nd and 78th, Im thinking that the 77th was meeting the standard from the get go, I hope to have access to the Clothing board records for the period of their raising this spring.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    The piper to my right and I are in Graham's Company of the 42nd, the Piper to my left is from MotC,

    Im just moving into the the Drummer's spot in this unit, making a new coat as well as Drummers cap for that, as the cap Im wearing is actually a 78th Cap.

    Given that there are all the images and even tailor bills for 77th officers showing lapels were worn by all officers from the very beginning, and the 77th not being censured like the 42nd and 78th, Im thinking that the 77th was meeting the standard from the get go, I hope to have access to the Clothing board records for the period of their raising this spring.
    Luke, I was aware that 77th officers had lapels and silver lace from the beginning of the regiment, but I haven't seen anything to indicate how the serjeants and ORs of the 77th were dressed from 1757-59. Given the custom of the Army from the early 18th c., it is likely that the grenadier company was laced. It is also likely that serjeants of all companies wore laced coats. However, given the ability of the regimental colonels to practice whatever penury they wanted (with the approval of the Board of General Officers) to cut corners and put the funds in their own pockets, I would suspect that Col Archibald Montgomery may have originally left the lace off the coats of his ORs. Just a guess, mind you, but an educated guess. I was aware that the 42nd and the 78th were censured by the Board of General Officers in 1759, but I figured Col Montgomery had enough moxie to get his troops' uniforms in line with the Uniform Board's requirements before the BoGO had to crack down. Anyway, I'll be very interested to learn what you learn from the Uniform Board's records when you obtain them. I can tell you that the uniform of the 77th as worn by most reenactors, was the result of unit founders (like Bob Starzynski) not having any information and adopting the look from the portrait of the 42nd grenadier, using plain white lace.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orvis View Post
    Luke, I was aware that 77th officers had lapels and silver lace from the beginning of the regiment, but I haven't seen anything to indicate how the serjeants and ORs of the 77th were dressed from 1757-59. Given the custom of the Army from the early 18th c., it is likely that the grenadier company was laced. It is also likely that serjeants of all companies wore laced coats. However, given the ability of the regimental colonels to practice whatever penury they wanted (with the approval of the Board of General Officers) to cut corners and put the funds in their own pockets, I would suspect that Col Archibald Montgomery may have originally left the lace off the coats of his ORs. Just a guess, mind you, but an educated guess. I was aware that the 42nd and the 78th were censured by the Board of General Officers in 1759, but I figured Col Montgomery had enough moxie to get his troops' uniforms in line with the Uniform Board's requirements before the BoGO had to crack down. Anyway, I'll be very interested to learn what you learn from the Uniform Board's records when you obtain them. I can tell you that the uniform of the 77th as worn by most reenactors, was the result of unit founders (like Bob Starzynski) not having any information and adopting the look from the portrait of the 42nd grenadier, using plain white lace.
    We all have had to make the best choice with the best info we had at the time. There is a whole lot of irony here, when we formed the 78th way back when, we really wanted to do the 42nd, but the fact that the lace cost as much as a musket, well it made us go with the cheaper option of doing the unlaced 78th! To now find out that only the Grens of the 42nd had lace, well it hurts. Since then, with the dollar not being as weak and finding sources for the lace, now 42nd units have lots of money invested in lace and are not wanting to change.

    The Officers of the 77th were rather forward looking in their dress. Lapels, white waistcoats, even white linings in their coats. Very post 68 in many respects. Im still working on enlisted uniform research for the 77th, it is the least researched unit out there. I have found some interesting things. The fact that the unit was split between theaters means that the guys up north, they were probably well supplied as all 3 regiments clothing seems to have been shipped together to wherever the 42nd was HQ'd. Dont know if it happened every year, but I have docs showing that it did happen in 58 for the 59 campaign season, but the companies down south ended up wearing whatever they could get, sometimes even coats made from blankets sewn by tailors of the PA Provincials.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    We all have had to make the best choice with the best info we had at the time. There is a whole lot of irony here, when we formed the 78th way back when, we really wanted to do the 42nd, but the fact that the lace cost as much as a musket, well it made us go with the cheaper option of doing the unlaced 78th! To now find out that only the Grens of the 42nd had lace, well it hurts. Since then, with the dollar not being as weak and finding sources for the lace, now 42nd units have lots of money invested in lace and are not wanting to change.

    The Officers of the 77th were rather forward looking in their dress. Lapels, white waistcoats, even white linings in their coats. Very post 68 in many respects. Im still working on enlisted uniform research for the 77th, it is the least researched unit out there. I have found some interesting things. The fact that the unit was split between theaters means that the guys up north, they were probably well supplied as all 3 regiments clothing seems to have been shipped together to wherever the 42nd was HQ'd. Dont know if it happened every year, but I have docs showing that it did happen in 58 for the 59 campaign season, but the companies down south ended up wearing whatever they could get, sometimes even coats made from blankets sewn by tailors of the PA Provincials.
    Luke - Great stuff. Yes, I have found that the 77th, despite it being such a large regiment and being all over the place in North America, was not well documented at all. Some years ago, I chanced to meet Lord Montgomerie (a son of the present Earl) at a Highland Games (he was guest of the Montgomery clan society) and we chatted a bit about what might still survive in the family collection (colours, regimental records, etc), and he said that much of whatever was left was destroyed at the Eglington Castle fire in the 1830s. Likewise, regimental records that had been sent to Horse Guards for retention were either destroyed by fire or damp, not leaving much. Fortunately, my job was in Washington DC and a friend (who was an historian at the Navy Historical Center and who was working on his masters dissertation about the 60th Foot (Royal Americans) in the F&IW gave me oblique access to records from various archives in DC (including National Archives) on microfilms he had copied. From these (the Forbes Papers) I got much information on the 77th during the 1758 Forbes campaign, including letters from Col Archibald Montgomery himself (I was surprised, as he was the son of an Earl and obviously could have had his regimental clerks write for him, but there it was in his own hand - terrible handwriting, by the way! There was also material from Sir John St. Clair and the officers who brought over the two additional companies from Scotland, training them as they went, to catch up with the regiment on the Forbes Road.

    Anyway, perhaps at some point we could meet to discuss what we have learned and share documentation that we have found. Your call. But thanks for sharing what you've found. Although I am no longer reenacting the 77th (or the RevWar 42nd) and am not chasing documentation on those units with much vigor (I reserve that now for the Jacobite Highlanders, and the Appins in particular), I have documentation and books laid by that you might be interested in. Until that time, I look forward to reading your future contributions to this blog.

  5. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Orvis For This Useful Post:


  6. #25
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    Yes, I look forward to meeting! The Archibald Montgomery papers are, at least a microfiche copy, in the LOC, and I need to get out there and review them this winter. I have a conference presentation in April that I cant in good conscience do without looking at these papers.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    Yes, I look forward to meeting! The Archibald Montgomery papers are, at least a microfiche copy, in the LOC, and I need to get out there and review them this winter. I have a conference presentation in April that I cant in good conscience do without looking at these papers.
    Although we've probably met at Ligonier back in the day, I'll look forward to meeting you whenever you make it back to the DC area. Let me know and we can exchange phone numbers, email addresses and such to assist in coordinating. BTW, the documents you want to look at are the Forbes Papers that were discovered in the 1980s in possession of a descendent of the mid-18th c. Royal Governor of South Carolina - Brigadier Forbes married his daughter. I'm also told (haven't seen them) that there is quite a large collection of Forbes Papers that were published in the early 20th c. As you may know, Col Montgomery was known as an individual who would rather fight two battles than write one letter. From the letters of his that I've seen, they treat very little upon the matter of uniforms.

  8. #27
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    This looks promising.

    https://www.loc.gov/item/mm2003084960/

    Specifically:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40444272_2145758225691026_8877418343921876992_n.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	42.9 KB 
ID:	35480

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie View Post
    This looks promising.

    https://www.loc.gov/item/mm2003084960/

    Specifically:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40444272_2145758225691026_8877418343921876992_n.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	42.9 KB 
ID:	35480
    Interesting, must see if I can get full access this side of the Pond.

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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Interesting, must see if I can get full access this side of the Pond.
    Might be easier than me driving 15 hours one way to try and view the fiche!

    The documents that I sent you, that you highlighted on your professional page, the one speaking of the herringbone selvage came from this same collection.

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  13. #30
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    This particular grouping of papers, in the British Library is one that I have not seen referenced anywhere. It could be because it has nothing useful from a uniforms/material culture standpoint, or it might be that its remoteness has kept anyone from "Discovering" it till I found it last weekend looking for something else!

    Title: CASH-BOOKS for 1757 and 1758; giving the accounts of five companies of the Royal American Regiment, under Colonel Henry Bouquet; and of the 1st Highland Battalion, commanded by Lieut.- Colonel Hon. Archibald Montgomery, at Charlestown, South Carolina
    Collection Area: Western Manuscripts
    Reference: Add MS 21659
    Creation Date: 1757-1758
    Extent and Access:
    Extent:
    1 item
    Language: English
    Contents and Scope:
    Contents:
    CASH-BOOKS for 1757 and 1758; giving the accounts of five companies of the Royal American Regiment, under Colonel Henry Bouquet; and of the 1st Highland Battalion, commanded by Lieut.- Colonel Hon. Archibald Montgomery, at Charlestown, South Carolina. Paper. Folio.

    Hon Archibald Montgomery, Lieutenant Colonel, afterwards 11th Earl of Eglintoun: Cashbooks of his Highland battalion: 1757, 1758.

    Army; England: Accounts of the regiments under Col. Bouquet in America: 1757, 1758.


    Related persons, etc: Montgomery, Hon, Archibald, Unspecified, Lieutenant Colonel, afterwards 11th Earl of Eglintoun
    Army of England, Unspecified

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