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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    Nice to see one in Colour OC Richard, I'm guessing that is the same style of doublet as the pipe band has in the Peel Railway Station Pictures?
    Probably.
    Here's a closeup, you can see that it's not the Pipes & Drums but rather their Military Band; note the clarinet, cornet, trombone, and French horn.



    The band is wearing the Full Dress doublet with musician's shells, musician's dirks, and long plaids. If I had to guess I would say that the fellow with his back to the camera, wearing the fly plaid and Glengarry, is a drummer from the Pipes & Drums.

    It appears that non-musicians are wearing ordinary Scottish pattern cutaway khaki serge tunics.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 24th August 18 at 08:26 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Probably.
    Here's a closeup, you can see that it's not the Pipes & Drums but rather their Military Band; note the clarinet, cornet, trombone, and French horn.



    The band is wearing the Full Dress doublet with musician's shells, musician's dirks, and long plaids. If I had to guess I would say that the fellow with his back to the camera, wearing the fly plaid and Glengarry, is a drummer from the Pipes & Drums.

    It appears that non-musicians are wearing ordinary Scottish pattern cutaway khaki serge tunics.
    Curious why if the band is in full dress including plaids why are they wearing the wide awake hat instead of somethin more formal?

    What do you make of the other kilted figure in white spats? London Scottish is my guess?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post

    What do you make of the other kilted figure in white spats?
    His plain Glengarry suggests that he is a piper.

    I don't know why the Pipes & Drums would be wearing Glengarries while the rest of the battalion (including the Military Band) is wearing slouch hats.

    Well, there's the issue of the bass drone on the shoulder, which the Scottish regiments had to accommodate in various ways; but the slouch hats are pinned up on the drone side (of most pipers).

    Here's an example of a military piper playing while wearing a slouch hat pinned up on the drone side (from WWII)



    Nothing to do with the Liverpool Scottish, but this photo of three Black Watch soldiers shows how the piper's sun helmet has been cut away to accommodate the bass drone

    Last edited by OC Richard; 24th August 18 at 06:43 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  4. #14
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    Interesting to see those inages, I'd never considered the impact of bagpipes on headgear style before now, but it makes sense. The thing about the figure in white spats is he's extemely markedly different to the rest of the men. There's a member of the band who has a glengarry too, but his has the dicing ehilst the other figure does not?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    There's a member of the band who has a glengarry too, but his has the dicing whilst the other figure does not?
    My assumption is that both men wearing Glengarries are members of the Pipes & Drums.

    As is usual in British regiments, pipers wear plain Glengarries whether or not the rest of the regiment wears diced ones.

    As here, in the Gordon Highlanders

    Last edited by OC Richard; 25th August 18 at 07:50 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    My assumption is that both men wearing Glengarries are members of the Pipes & Drums.

    As is usual in British regiments, pipers wear plain Glengarries whether or not the rest of the regiment wears diced ones.

    As here, in the Gordon Highlanders

    Interesting, what's the history behind that?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    Interesting, what's the history behind that?
    Behind pipers wearing plain Glengarries whether or not the rest of the regiment wears diced ones?

    It's related to why pipers, from the mid-19th century up to the abolition of Full Dress in 1914, wore dark green doublets while the rest of the regiment wore scarlet doublets, why pipers wore wide black waistbelts and crossbelts, and why pipers wore Glengarries in Full Dress while the rest of the regiment wore feather bonnets.

    Pipers weren't on the official establishment in the British Army until 1854. Until that "any of our officers may keep a piper, and pay him too, for no pay is allowed him, perhaps as he deserves." Pipers were hired and paid by the officers, or falsely kept on the establishment as drummers.

    So there was no official piper's dress, and their dress varied wildly from regiment to regiment.

    In the old days members of regimental Military Bands (brass and woodwinds) wore 'reversed colours' so if a regiment's facing-colour was dark green (their uniform being scarlet jackets with dark green collars, cuffs, and lapels) the Military Band would wear dark green jackets with scarlet collars, cuffs, and lapels. Other Military Bands wore white jackets.

    Pipers' dress in the various regiments included:
    1) being dressed like the other musicians, in white or reversed colours
    2) being dressed like the other soldiers of the regiment, in scarlet
    3) being dressed in livery like civilian pipers employed by the aristocracy (including such things as full tartan outfits).

    In the 1840s the 79th Foot (The Cameron Highlanders) introduced a new costume for their pipers which consisted of:

    -plain dark blue Glengarry (the 79th wore no dicing on their Glengarries)
    -dark green doublets (dark green was the facing-colour of the 79th)
    -wide black crossbelt and waistbelt with silver hardware, to support the sword and dirk
    -long diced hose with buckled shoes.

    For whatever reason the other Highland regiments began copying this piper's costume including the plain Glengarry (whether or not the regiment wore dicing) and dark green doublet (regardless of the regiment's facing-colour).

    Piper in dark green doublet and plain Glengarry, the rest of the soldiers in scarlet doublets and feather bonnets:



    The story of the 79th's 1840s piper's costume didn't end there. Full Dress was abolished in 1914 never to be revived, and from 1914 to 1953 Highland soldiers had nothing dressier than khaki drab. But for the coronation in 1953 a new Number One Dress was introduced, the jacket being dark green (rather than the traditional scarlet) for all Highland regiments.

    Piper and non-piper both in dark green jackets, the new No1 Dress introduced in 1953



    And that wasn't the end, for in 2006 with the formation of The Royal Regiment Of Scotland all Scottish troops, Highland and Lowland, were put into green doublets. The specialized costume of the half-dozen pipers of a single battalion had become the dress of the entire infantry of a nation.

    The RRS (2SCOTS) showing piper and non-pipers in dark green doublets, piper wearing plain Glengarry

    Last edited by OC Richard; 27th August 18 at 04:27 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Behind pipers wearing plain Glengarries whether or not the rest of the regiment wears diced ones?

    It's related to why pipers, from the mid-19th century up to the abolition of Full Dress in 1914, wore dark green doublets while the rest of the regiment wore scarlet doublets, why pipers wore wide black waistbelts and crossbelts, and why pipers wore Glengarries in Full Dress while the rest of the regiment wore feather bonnets.

    Pipers weren't on the official establishment in the British Army until 1854. Until that "any of our officers may keep a piper, and pay him too, for no pay is allowed him, perhaps as he deserves." Pipers were hired and paid by the officers, or falsely kept on the establishment as drummers.

    So there was no official piper's dress, and their dress varied wildly from regiment to regiment.

    In the old days members of regimental Military Bands (brass and woodwinds) wore 'reversed colours' so if a regiment's facing-colour was dark green (their uniform being scarlet jackets with dark green collars, cuffs, and lapels) the Military Band would wear dark green jackets with scarlet collars, cuffs, and lapels. Other Military Bands wore white jackets.

    Pipers' dress in the various regiments included:
    1) being dressed like the other musicians, in white or reversed colours
    2) being dressed like the other soldiers of the regiment, in scarlet
    3) being dressed in livery like civilian pipers employed by the aristocracy (including such things as full tartan outfits).

    In the 1840s the 79th Foot (The Cameron Highlanders) introduced a new costume for their pipers which consisted of:

    -plain dark blue Glengarry (the 79th wore no dicing on their Glengarries)
    -dark green doublets (dark green was the facing-colour of the 79th)
    -wide black crossbelt and waistbelt with silver hardware, to support the sword and dirk
    -long diced hose with buckled shoes.

    For whatever reason the other Highland regiments began copying this piper's costume including the plain Glengarry (whether or not the regiment wore dicing) and dark green doublet (regardless of the regiment's facing-colour).

    Piper in dark green doublet and plain Glengarry, the rest of the soldiers in scarlet doublets and feather bonnets:



    The story of the 79th's 1840s piper's costume didn't end there. Full Dress was abolished in 1914 never to be revived, and from 1914 to 1953 Highland soldiers had nothing dressier than khaki drab. But for the coronation in 1953 a new Number One Dress was introduced, the jacket being dark green (rather than the traditional scarlet) for all Highland regiments.

    Piper and non-piper both in dark green jackets, the new No1 Dress introduced in 1953



    And that wasn't the end, for in 2006 with the formation of The Royal Regiment Of Scotland all Scottish troops, Highland and Lowland, were put into green doublets. The specialized costume of the half-dozen pipers of a single battalion had become the dress of the entire infantry of a nation.

    The RRS (2SCOTS) showing piper and non-pipers in dark green doublets, piper wearing plain Glengarry

    Great post OC, I'd always assumed the dicing was a regimental and not an individual distinction. It seems a little odd generally seem pipers to be the most decorated individuals in terms of their uniforms when compared to other junior members of the regiment, but I guess as with the rest of the military traditions reign strong and so it makes sense.

    I'd been aware of the various creative methods used to get Pipers onto the strength of the Regiment (one wonders if they were listed as drummers whether they would be expected to be dual trained to at least give the illusion if anyone who was likely to object turned up that they were). I recall reading an interesting book about Pipers my father has some years back, one of the interesting illustrations which was from the 18thC depicted a piper in a short coat, bonnet and trousers (not breeches), alas I would have to look again to closer recall the details.

    I think there was also something about the Royal Scots (Lowland for those who aren't aware) having pipers at an early point in their history. Whether this was official decision or if they were simply men who could pipe who were permitted to pipe as the regiment marched I can't recollect. I do also remember some annecdote about some recruits parading in Highland dress when they first joined (not for any other reason than that's what they had as their clothing and they were out of it as soon as they were issued with uniforms).

    Always found it curious the Adolphus illustrations never show any pipers, is there anything to suggest the mercenaries kept them or would it have been a case of not paying for any man who wasn't fighting or doing a signalling role (ie a drummer)?

    To my eyes the figure in the white spats appeared to have a grey kilt, though there is possibly some white lines upon it. I guess an old Black and White picture may do funny things to a tartan to make it appear all one colour?

    Spotted something on your image of the 2SCOTS piper, he has his medals appearing to be pinned to his plaid. Is this normal practice when wearing a plaid?
    Last edited by Allan Thomson; 28th August 18 at 03:50 AM.

  10. #19
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    Seems that medals go on top of whatever is in the place the medals need to be, for example here over the sash and plaid



    BTW the uniform of 4SCOTS is the continuation of the original 1840's piper's uniform of the 79th Foot (Cameron Highlanders).

    The plain dark blue Glengarry with eagle feather, the dark green doublet, the kilt and plaid of Cameron of Erracht tartan, the green and red diced hose, the buckled shoes, even the crossbelt hardware hasn't changed in over 150 years.

    The main difference 150 years ago was the grey sporran, and the big wide garters wrapping over the hose.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 28th August 18 at 09:21 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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