[CMcG]

Originally Posted by ForresterModern

<snip>
I agree that tie, shirt, hose, and choice of accessories can take this overall look from slightly overdressed daywear to slightly underdressed formal eveningwear. I do think it looks best with the five button waistcoat.

My lass took a look at this thread and offered a similar analysis in terms of level of formality. With a coloured shirt, coloured tie, and daywear or semi-dress sporran, one might be smart casual, through dressy, and up to semi-formal (suit equivalent). Change that up to a white shirt, black tie, and dress sporran, she called it semi-formal (tux equivalent) but not quite full formal (black tie). I'm trying to paraphrase her based on the terminology in the 1 kilt 10 looks thread

[Jock Scot]

Originally Posted by CMcG

My lass took a look at this thread and offered a similar analysis in terms of level of formality. With a coloured shirt, coloured tie, and daywear or semi-dress sporran, one might be smart casual, through dressy, and up to semi-formal (suit equivalent). Change that up to a white shirt, black tie, and dress sporran, she called it semi-formal (tux equivalent) but not quite full formal (black tie). I'm trying to paraphrase her based on the terminology in the 1 kilt 10 looks thread

As much as I hate to disagree with a lady I think she makes life far too complicated.How can a suit be semi formal? The dinner suit (tux) is surely the bottom rung of formal evening wear? Somehow dress codes/conventions seem to be getting out of hand and definitions of what is formal and what is not, seems to be getting confused. What in heavens name is semi-formal supposed to mean?

[CMcG]

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

<snip> Somehow dress codes/conventions seem to be getting out of hand and definitions of what is formal and what is not, seems to be getting confused. What in heavens name is semi-formal supposed to mean?

I agree that dress codes and peoples different interpretations of them are rather confusing; I'm perpetually puzzled by them! I was trying to go by the "1 kilt 10 looks" thread and Panache has categories for "semi-formal (suit equivalent" and "semi-formal (tux equivalent)" which lie in between "dressy" and "formal (black tie)." I'd love to read a disambiguation in general but also in particular, regarding the contemporary outfits that are the main subject of this thread.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

How about:

AFTER 6PM:

White tie = formal evening attire = doublet or coatee, and tartan, or diced hose
Black tie = formal dinner or formal party attire = doublet, coatee, or dress Argyll jacket, and coloured, or tartan, or diced hose
(aside from the colour of the tie and, possibly, the waistcoat, there is little or no difference in Highland attire worn with white or black tie)
Dark suit = dinner, or party, or theatre attire = Argyll jacket and coloured, or tartan hose

BEFORE 6PM:

Dark suit = weddings, funerals, official functions = Argyll jacket, hose as stated above
Light suit = office attire (business dress) = tweed or wool kilt jacket, plain coloured hose
Blazer or Sport Coat = weekend attire = tweed kilt jacket, plain coloured hose

Jeans = casual = kilt jacket or sweater, plain coloured hose

As far as dress codes are concerned, if one sets aside the "I'll wear what I want" argument, life is pretty simple. Here are a few rules (much as some hate them):

1) Always look at the invitation to any event or party. Usually the requested/required dress will be stated on the invitation. If it says "black tie" then that means that the host/organizer expects the guests to show up in formal attire with a black bow tie.

2) If the invitation does not specify the required mode of dress, look at your watch. If the event is after 6PM the minimum expected is a dark suit. If it is before 6PM the most formal level of attire expected is a dark suit.

3) Apply common sense. A barbecue at 7PM will probably be "casual" while lunch with the governor at 1PM will probably be formal. Dress accordingly.

4) Unless you are in the fashion industry, avoid extremes unless you wish to give the impression that you have rented your clothes for the occasion. If you have rented your clothes for the occasion dress conservatively unless you want people to know you are in rented duds.

The above applies to ordinary clothes as well as Highland attire. And one final word. If you are renting your clothes-- and there is nothing wrong with that-- don't wear white (or ivory, etc.) hose. Buy a pair of coloured hose as this is much more in keeping with "proper" Highland attire, no matter what you may have read on page 85 of somebody's "How To Wear A Kilt Book".

[CMcG]

MoR, thanks for a great summary of the occasions of dress.

If only all situations were as clear cut... much of my confusion regarding codes is based on variations of context and terminology. Some social circles may have a more relaxed or strict interpretation of a seemingly standard term like formal, while a term like semi-formal can be hard to judge when some people use it to mean black tie and others mean dark suit. Not to mention the fact that events may start before 6:00 PM but end well afterwards! I guess when in doubt, one might do well to ask the host.

Back to the matter at hand. By what MoR has set out, I'm thinking the contemporary outfits seen in this thread would be a dark suit/Argyll equivalent? Rather flexible, they seem.

[peacekeeper83]

I have to agree with the majority... I am not a fan of the ruche tie.... the black on black look... normally... it has its place...

Chas.. I like your jacket/waistcoat... and it appears we are simularly built..so it gives me hope...LOL I like the contemporary look, worn in the traditional manner... and I hope to have a jacket/waistcoat soon...

but here is my question.. for Jock and our other knowledgeable mentors.... would you consider a goat hair sporran too formal for daywear? or will it be a good daywear/formal wear addition to ones wardrobe?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Although the goat hair/horse hair sporran was a civilian day wear item in years gone by, I think that today it is best relegated to formal evening attire. I own one day wear sporran (deer hide with a brass cantle) one evening wear sporran (sealskin with a silver cantle) and a full mask muskrat sporran for more dressy day wear or less dressy evening wear. And that's it.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally Posted by CMcG

If only all situations were as clear cut... much of my confusion regarding codes is based on variations of context and terminology. Some social circles may have a more relaxed or strict interpretation of a seemingly standard term like formal, while a term like semi-formal can be hard to judge when some people use it to mean black tie and others mean dark suit. Not to mention the fact that events may start before 6:00 PM but end well afterwards! I guess when in doubt, one might do well to ask the host.

The general rule of thumb is that if an event starts before 6PM but will continue on into the evening a dark suit (Argyll & tie) is appropriate. The exception to this is if, on the invitation, the host specifies a certain level of dress is to be worn. If in doubt -- as you have so wisely pointed out -- it is best to ask the host.

[gordontaos]

This is a very interesting discussion that brings up regional and possibly generational differences as well as style and fashion issues. If there is one thing that you might learn from this website, it is that style and fashion change through time. Some of my observations are:
1-None of the jackets seem to fit, except for the one in photo #1. Unless of course I am completely wrong, and Argyll Jackets are supposed to have sleeves significantly longer than regular suit jackets. My understanding is that a well fitted suit jacket should show 1/4 inch of sleeve.
2-I think that Redshank has it right,(and a good eye), to notice that the jacket in photo #2 has perhaps been cut down from a regular Saxon suit jacket. We certainly do not want to be snobby, but we are talking about "fashion" here.
3-In regards to fashion and style, I agree with M.A.C. Newsomes statements about monochromatic vs. simple color palettes. His outfit does indeed show off each element of his kit in a very pleasing way.
4-I personally however think that the ruche ties add a bit of flair that harkens back to yesteryear, and can be fun.
5- The ruche ties can also add to the "bad boy" feel of a kilt wearing younger man who is dressed all in black. I live in the "wild wild west" and frequently dress all in black (from hat to boots) with silver and turquoise accessories. It does send a statement. Now, whether or not you like the statement depends on your own personal viewpoint, but, I am dressing for me, not you, and when I dress that way I am not trying to accent a beautiful tartan.
6-MacMillan of Rathtown has done a marvelous job of explaining what gets worn when. However, again, I live in the wild wild west, more than 80 miles from the nearest interstate. In this area, and I am not kidding, formal means black jeans without holes. When we have a formal event we advertise it as "Taos Formal", which just means to do your best. So the distinction between black tie, white tie, dark suit, light suit, or blazer just not does exist here, or anywhere within 75 miles of here. Is that proper and correct? No. Is that reality? Yes. But, thanks to MacMillan of Rothtown, I will know what to wear when, on those rare occasions, I do go to the big city.
7-Finally, it all boils down to the neverending discussion between fashion and style. Are you dressing for fashion or style? if one dresses for fashion, one will be continually purchasing new clothing. If, however, you dress for style, you will be only purchasing clothing when your present clothing wears out. I prefer to save my money to purchase fine Scotch, which is always in fashion and always in style.

[Ancienne Alliance]

If I can, I will wear charcoal or dark grey instead of pitch black, even though I have nothing against that colour per se.
I always dread the Zorro look or, as Matt pointed out , giving the impression of trying too hard.




In this photo, I am wearing a Charcoal Argyll and waistcoat (no epaulettes, Crail sleeves), cassonnade-grey-beige shirt and matching hoses to echo the bobcat Fergusson Britt sporran.

The hose tops and tie echoe the green in my Double Box Pleated kilt made by Lady Chrystel in a Robertson Hunting tartan.

Notice the black shoes purposely unmatching the brown leather of the sporran... à la Duke of Rothesay.




Best,

Robert