Feedback from a newbie here.

[OC Richard]

I have very much enjoyed my short time here and particularly reading all the “back issues” of old threads, many of which are fascinating. And reading through all of these old threads gives a revealing insight into the development and structure of this site as it exists today.

That's an admirable thing to do, and one I admit I've not done in the various chat forums I've joined.

It's later, when various topics come up and longstanding members have posted links to old discussions, that I gain insights into the history and evolution of the various forums. I always come away with added knowledge and appreciation.

...dogma...no dissent is allowed...do not overstep the accepted norms...arbiters of all that is correct...establishment...orthodoxy...

I have seen this sentiment, in those exact words, expressed by people from time to time on all the forums I'm a member of.

For example, on a Highland pipe forum, almost exclusively populated by people in the Highland piping scene, who have learned the pipes through the ordinary pedagogy, and who have participated in solo and Pipe Band competitions etc etc, a newbie will come on board who comes from a different world, say a guitarist who knows nothing about piping.

This newbie will speak about picking up a cheap set of Pakistani pipes and noodling around on his own, inventing his own way of fingering and playing. When people who have spent their lives playing and teaching try to help, try to guide the newbie into getting a legitimate instrument, advising the newbie to take lessons so as to learn the pipes properly, the newbie will often be off-put, and begin talking about "orthodoxy" and "dissent" and such, as if the topic is religion.

Thing is, the veteran pipers are just trying to be helpful, just trying to steer the newbie on the path to becoming a good player.

The same thing happens here. Newbies come along seeking information and guidance, and with the best intentions we give it. Sometimes the advice is taken in the intended spirit, at other times the newbie views the fact that there are traditions and norms as an attack on his freedom and begins speaking of "orthodoxy" and "rules" and "must" and "should" and such.

The fact is that any style, any "fashion culture", has defining characteristics. Being made aware of these isn't an assault on anyone's freedom. Any tradition, Traditional Highland Dress included, is a reality. Anyone can choose to know about it, or be ignorant of it, to follow its norms, or ignore them. But being ignorant of a reality, or choosing to ignore the norms of a reality, doesn't diminish the reality or make it cease to exist.

...as if the Highlands (are) where all kilt wisdom resides…

I myself am always acutely aware of my status as an outsider. Highland Dress is traditional only in the Highlands of Scotland, and I will always pay particular attention to the opinions of Highlanders.

However I know that Highland Dress has been steadily moving from the unique dress of Highlanders to the status of being the Scottish National Dress. I have a book published in 1910 that calls it such, and this trend has continued.

Thus I also respect and take note of the views of all Scots on these matters.

It's not a matter of Scots being up on the history of things, it's a matter of insiders alone having the viewpoint of insiders. Outsiders can study the facts and can study the views of insiders but they can never BE insiders.

As an outsider I approach things not from dogma but from dogma's exact opposite: accepting my position as an outsider, making myself a blank tablet, looking at all the evidence I can find, and letting that evidence tell me what Traditional Highland Dress is.

[Me cousin Jack]

That's an admirable thing to do, and one I admit I've not done in the various chat forums I've joined.

It's later, when various topics come up and longstanding members have posted links to old discussions, that I gain insights into the history and evolution of the various forums. I always come away with added knowledge and appreciation.



I have seen this sentiment, in those exact words, expressed by people from time to time on all the forums I'm a member of.

For example, on a Highland pipe forum, almost exclusively populated by people in the Highland piping scene, who have learned the pipes through the ordinary pedagogy, and who have participated in solo and Pipe Band competitions etc etc, a newbie will come on board who comes from a different world, say a guitarist who knows nothing about piping.

This newbie will speak about picking up a cheap set of Pakistani pipes and noodling around on his own, inventing his own way of fingering and playing. When people who have spent their lives playing and teaching try to help, try to guide the newbie into getting a legitimate instrument, advising the newbie to take lessons so as to learn the pipes properly, the newbie will often be off-put, and begin talking about "orthodoxy" and "dissent" and such, as if the topic is religion.

Thing is, the veteran pipers are just trying to be helpful, just trying to steer the newbie on the path to becoming a good player.

The same thing happens here. Newbies come along seeking information and guidance, and with the best intentions we give it. Sometimes the advice is taken in the intended spirit, at other times the newbie views the fact that there are traditions and norms as an attack on his freedom and begins speaking of "orthodoxy" and "rules" and "must" and "should" and such.

The fact is that any style, any "fashion culture", has defining characteristics. Being made aware of these isn't an assault on anyone's freedom. Any tradition, Traditional Highland Dress included, is a reality. Anyone can choose to know about it, or be ignorant of it, to follow its norms, or ignore them. But being ignorant of a reality, or choosing to ignore the norms of a reality, doesn't diminish the reality or make it cease to exist.



I myself am always acutely aware of my status as an outsider. Highland Dress is traditional only in the Highlands of Scotland, and I will always pay particular attention to the opinions of Highlanders.

However I know that Highland Dress has been steadily moving from the unique dress of Highlanders to the status of being the Scottish National Dress. I have a book published in 1910 that calls it such, and this trend has continued.

Thus I also respect and take note of the views of all Scots on these matters.

It's not a matter of Scots being up on the history of things, it's a matter of insiders alone having the viewpoint of insiders. Outsiders can study the facts and can study the views of insiders but they can never BE insiders.

As an outsider I approach things not from dogma but from dogma's exact opposite: accepting my position as an outsider, making myself a blank tablet, looking at all the evidence I can find, and letting that evidence tell me what Traditional Highland Dress is.

This! Well put.



“As an outsider I approach things not from dogma but from dogma's exact opposite: accepting my position as an outsider, making myself a blank tablet, looking at all the evidence I can find, and letting that evidence tell me what Traditional Highland Dress is”

[EdinSteve]

The only thing I would say is that Scotland is a variety of identities from the viking north to the quasi-English south but what unites it is a unique identity. Some here espouse ghillie shirts and are ridiculed for it. Others will only wear particular socks and ridicule others who choose white ones. Then we have shirts which must be of one style and no other and heaven forbid anyone transgressing these tablets of stone.
I won’t even move to the question of headwear which attracts extreme views and even can finish up in the “cooling off corner”.
Can I suggest that everyone needs to develop a sense of proportion and understand that Scotland is not just “highland” and that everyone there shares a common identity and that anyone identifying with that must keep an open mind.

[OC Richard]

I sometimes take spells away from here, and there are things I don't see.

I can't recall seeing anybody being ridiculed. Maybe it went to the cooling off corner before I saw it?

[jhead7090]

I must say I read the original post with interest. I came to this forum as an unranked novice concerning all things kilts and proudly posted as my profile pic myself taken at my mothers at Christmas time. I was only slightly taken aback when I was informed that I didn't have the kilt centered properly. Taking a second look at the picture I slapped my forehead with my hand. Being a retired Marine that should have been obvious to me since aligning oneself was second nature, we called it military alignment. That was the only negative comment I received. I'd like to thank you for teaching me a new word, I had to look up erudite. Seems I've known that word all along we just called it a know it all. I continue coming here to see what others have to offer and take all opinions for what they are, just that. I don't travel in kilted circles with only a couple of family members who wear kilts but go out and about when the weather is fair (nothing smells quite like wet wool). I continue coming here because it seems to be one of the most cordial online venues that I've found.

[EdinSteve]

I sometimes take spells away from here, and there are things I don't see.

I can't recall seeing anybody being ridiculed. Maybe it went to the cooling off corner before I saw it?

It is still there, only one of a number of instances of a rather unwarranted and unpleasant campaign by one over-opinionated individual bent on trying to humiliate a newcomer who only came here for advice. In the end he seems to have succeeded in alienating that person, more is the pity.

[hector]

EdinSteve: Aye, Aye, Aye from someone with 0,00% of Scottish or Irish blood in his veins.

Steve Ashton: I respect you sir. You are a real gentleman and a person with a reconciling spirit. I stay on the forum because from time to time I pick up something interesting. For the rest I am an 'Aye' man.

[Farmer Jones]

.... A site that, at one time, seemed to have much interesting discussion but which now seems to exist mainly on “Aye” votes from people who really can’t be bothered any more or, perhaps, have realised that any contribution is treated as an attack on orthodoxy and, as a result go elsewhere.

When someone clicks Aye, it indicates they have enough interest in a discussion to read it and perhaps think about it. A response does not need to be a re-iteration of a point made by someone else.

[jthk]

When someone clicks Aye, it indicates they have enough interest in a discussion to read it and perhaps think about it. A response does not need to be a re-iteration of a point made by someone else.

Exactly.

The "Aye" button does exactly the job that this message does and what I don't want to see: repeated posts that clutter the thread with simple notes of agreement (which is exactly what I'm doing here). I appreciate members' contributions and messages of support but if a post is a simple "sure", "great", "good man", whatever, then I would prefer that users simply click the "Aye" button instead.

Best,
Jonathan

[Me cousin Jack]

Fagetaboutit