X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Freedom Kilts website Scotweb websiten Burnetts and Struth website The Scottish Trading Company
Xmarks advertising information Xmarks advertising information Celtic Croft website Xmarks advertising information Xmarks advertising information

User Tag List

Results 1 to 5 of 5
  1. #1
    Join Date
    2nd October 18
    Location
    delaware
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Military sporrans

    I am working on my Argyll and Sutherland Highlander's kit and I need some sporran advice. I have noticed that the antique or vintage officers badger mask sporrans seem to have a brass cantle like the one on the enlisted man's swinging six.
    I have found some nice new custom made badger mask sporrans which are identical except in the photos they do not seem to have the brass cantle. Does this mean that they are strictly civilian?
    Can they be used for an officer's impression?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    7,482
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't know which new custom made sporrans you mean, but yes the sporrans which were formerly worn by Sergeants and Officers of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (of Scotland) are badger with a brass (or perhaps gilt) rim at top.

    I used to own both this sporran and the Other Ranks sporran and the cantles, though both brass, were not shaped the same.

    On the badger sporran the six tassels are suspended by gold bullion cords, and the cones are AFAIK unique to this sporran, gilt, thistle design, with the ends serrated resembling pinking shears, or zigzag one could say.

    One thing to note is that Scottish badgers and North American badgers have faces differing in colour and pattern as well as overall size and shape. In the latter days of the Argylls I saw a number of North American sporrans (by L&M I think).

    Here are traditional ones made with British badgers. You can see the proper cones, gaskets, etc.





    Here's one made with a North American badger. You can see the cantle shape fairly well. This has the correct cones. The leather gaskets in the cones should be red leather, not black.



    Here's an OR's sporran. You can see the different cantle shape.



    If your impression is of a piper be aware that the Argylls pipers wore completely different sporrans, like this



    The Pipe Major and Drum Major wore a different sporran yet; this is the newer type





    and this is the older type



    A Private showing the OR's sporran



    And Officers had two sporrans, the badger one and the Levee Dress one



    Here showing that the badger sporran was worn by Sergeants too

    Last edited by OC Richard; 21st November 18 at 06:33 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  3. The Following 3 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date
    24th October 18
    Location
    Perth Australia
    Posts
    37
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OC Richard knows his stuff...
    Ex- South African military NCO. Great grandson of Captain William Henry Stevenson of the Highland Light Infantry, Scotland (1880's) and brother to Infantryman Peter Mark Schumann of the 2nd Transvaal Scottish, South Africa (1980's).

  5. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to Garth For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date
    2nd October 18
    Location
    delaware
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    a Million thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    I don't know which new custom made sporrans you mean, but yes the sporrans which were formerly worn by Sergeants and Officers of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (of Scotland) are badger with a brass (or perhaps gilt) rim at top.

    I used to own both this sporran and the Other Ranks sporran and the cantles, though both brass, were not shaped the same.

    On the badger sporran the six tassels are suspended by gold bullion cords, and the cones are AFAIK unique to this sporran, gilt, thistle design, with the ends serrated resembling pinking shears, or zigzag one could say.

    One thing to note is that Scottish badgers and North American badgers have faces differing in colour and pattern as well as overall size and shape. In the latter days of the Argylls I saw a number of North American sporrans (by L&M I think).

    Here are traditional ones made with British badgers. You can see the proper cones, gaskets, etc.





    Here's one made with a North American badger. You can see the cantle shape fairly well. This has the correct cones. The leather gaskets in the cones should be red leather, not black.



    Here's an OR's sporran. You can see the different cantle shape.



    If your impression is of a piper be aware that the Argylls pipers wore completely different sporrans, like this



    The Pipe Major and Drum Major wore a different sporran yet; this is the newer type





    and this is the older type



    A Private showing the OR's sporran



    And Officers had two sporrans, the badger one and the Levee Dress one



    Here showing that the badger sporran was worn by Sergeants too

    A million thanks for this information. Its confirms what I thought. Thomas

  7. #5
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    7,482
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DE Tommy View Post
    A million thanks for this information. Its confirms what I thought. Thomas
    Thanks!

    I'm trying to add up how many different sporrans each of the various post-1881 Highland regiments had... quite a few, there usually being these different styles

    1) Other Ranks
    2) sergeants
    3) officers parade dress
    4) officers Levee dress
    5) pipers
    6) Pipe Major
    (sometimes) 7) Drum Major and/or other senior sergeants

    This doesn't take into account the plain leather purses for No2 Dress etc added in the 20th century.

    As best I can recall the Black Watch would have the fewest, due to (unlike the other regiments) the pipers, Pipe Major, Drum Major, sergeants, and officers all wearing the same style. So you only have:

    1) Other Ranks
    2) sergents/officers/pipers/Pipe Major/Drum Major/etc
    3) officers Levee Dress (the same sporran as #2 but with bullion tassels)

    plus of course the plain leather purse for No2 Dress.

    Here's the Black Watch showing the pipers, Pipe Major, and Drum Major all wearing the same style sporran



    The Cameron Highlanders, showing the special pipers' sporrans (adopted in the 1850s) and the unique Pipe Major's sporran (worn by Pipe Major Evan MacRae)



    And here's a spanner in the works regarding the sporrans of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders



    Recall that in 1881 the 91st became the 1st Battalion and the 93rd became the 2nd battalion of the new regiment The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

    It was the case that battalions who had lost their Highland Dress in 1809 were amalgamated in 1881 with battalions who had retained it throughout, and the Highland Dress of the latter battalion became the dress of the entire new two-battalion regiment.

    So there wasn't an issue of conflation of Highland Dress except in regards to pipers, who were the only members of the battalions who had lost their Highland Dress in 1809 who retained Highland Dress in the 1809-1881 period.

    So what we're seeing in the photo above is a piper of the new 1st Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wearing his pre-1881 sporran worn by the pipers of the 91st.

    The 72nd and 78th, who became 1st Seaforths and 2nd Seaforths in 1881, never did completely unify their pipers' kit, wearing different sporrans, belts, buckles, dirks etc right up to the end of those battalions.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 4th December 18 at 06:18 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0