What about the long kilts?

[Roan Carter]

I was just wanting to ask if there was any historical foundation for the "long kilt" that goes to the ankles.

I'm aware of the late medieval illustration of Scots in kilts of various length, but I was wandering if anyone could share any more information on the subject matter.

I seem to recall hearing a martial arts instructor mention that long skirts served well to conceal footwork, and I'm beginning to get the impression there was a lot of that in British traditional martial arts ("cock stepping," etc.) Just a thought.

This is for an illustration I'm making of kilted fighters.

[An t-Ileach]

They're probably the feileadh mor with the top bit let down to the ankles all around.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm not sure what "late medieval" illustrations you are talking about, but the feilidh-mhor cannot be documented any earlier than the end of the sixteenth century (1594) with the first illustrations not coming until early in the seventeenth century -- and most of the illustrations I have seen show it worn with the upper part secured in some way on or around the shoulders, so the kilt shows only knee length. Just from my own memory, the only illustrations I can think of that show it with the upper part down are eighteenth century. So hardly "late medieval" by any standard, so I don't think what you are describing is a feilidh-mhor.

My best guess would be that you are thinking of the leine, or Gaelic tunic. Read my article here:
http://albanach.org/leine.html

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

See if any of the illustrations in my article are like those you are thinking of. In any case, this is not a kilt at all by any definition, but a long shirt.

Aye,
Matt

[GTRMAN]

I was just wanting to ask if there was any historical foundation for the "long kilt" that goes to the ankles.

I'm aware of the late medieval illustration of Scots in kilts of various length, but I was wandering if anyone could share any more information on the subject matter.

I seem to recall hearing a martial arts instructor mention that long skirts served well to conceal footwork, and I'm beginning to get the impression there was a lot of that in British traditional martial arts ("cock stepping," etc.) Just a thought.

This is for an illustration I'm making of kilted fighters.

The long skirts your martial arts instructor is referring to is a Japanese Hakama which is pleated and runs to the ankle or even to the floor.

[Caradoc]

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

My own leine reaches to the top of the calf. While wearing a belted plaid, I pull it up to blouse the top out and hide the hem under the "kilt" part of the belted plaid.

The linen keeps the wool off the sensitive bits.

[Roan Carter]

[QUOTE=GTRMAN]The long skirts your martial arts instructor is referring to is a Japanese Hakama which is pleated and runs to the ankle or even to the floor.


Yeah -- I recalled their functionality and was wondering if it was exclusive to the orient.

[Caradoc]

[QUOTE=Roan Carter]

The long skirts your martial arts instructor is referring to is a Japanese Hakama which is pleated and runs to the ankle or even to the floor.


Yeah -- I recalled their functionality and was wondering if it was exclusive to the orient.

I don't know about the exclusivity, but there's a Western Martial Arts YahooGroup that might be helpful - they cover a lot of the so-called "Celtic" martial arts, including Cumann Bhata, purring, single-stick, broadsword, etc.

Description

a place to discuss the various European martial traditions that either currently active or have been in the past. Some of the topics will include: Boxing, Wrestling in all of it's european forms, Savate, Sambo, Pankration, Faction Fighting, Fencing, Rapier, Longsword, Broadsword any western style sword you can imagine! Pole arms from axes to spears! and anything else of european martial descent.

Link to the Western Arts YahooGroup

[Mithral]

I'm not sure what "late medieval" illustrations you are talking about, but the feilidh-mhor cannot be documented any earlier than the end of the sixteenth century (1594) with the first illustrations not coming until early in the seventeenth century -- and most of the illustrations I have seen show it worn with the upper part secured in some way on or around the shoulders, so the kilt shows only knee length. Just from my own memory, the only illustrations I can think of that show it with the upper part down are eighteenth century. So hardly "late medieval" by any standard, so I don't think what you are describing is a feilidh-mhor.

My best guess would be that you are thinking of the leine, or Gaelic tunic. Read my article here:
http://albanach.org/leine.html

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

See if any of the illustrations in my article are like those you are thinking of. In any case, this is not a kilt at all by any definition, but a long shirt.

Aye,
Matt

I believe the illustration intended is this:

A woodcut from your Early Scottish Dress book and from your website which you identify as being from 1641. True, not medieval, but earlier than 18th century

[M. A. C. Newsome]

On that 1641 woodcut, three of the men are kilted -- one has a kilt above the knee, one right on the knee, and one well below the knee, but still not ankle length.

I was thinking of some of the earlier illustrations showing the longer leine.

M

[Mithral]

Ah, fair enough. To me one of them looks like his kilt length could be interpreted as close enough to ankle length as makes no neverminds. But you've no doubt studied that and other pictures more than I have. BTW, I've been meaning to make my way down to the museum soonish, are you generally around? I'd love to meet you.