Clans and Septs

[Skweres]

i take after the irish from my dads mother, my grandmother, and the county from her mother limerick

[Arlen]

Everything MacWage said in here...

Very, very well explained.
As someone who has spent many years studying Pictish and Scottish history it's nice to see that particular argument summed up so nicely.
Well done.

[MacWage]

Very, very well explained.
As someone who has spent many years studying Pictish and Scottish history it's nice to see that particular argument summed up so nicely.
Well done.

Thanks.
Scary what one can pull off the top of their head, ain't it.

[Cawdorian]

There are many of us who have inherited our Scottish blood through the maternal lines of the family, but don't forget every woman has a father from whom she inherited her name. You will be in good company in the Clan Donald Society, you do meet their requirements for membership.

The MacDonald tartan is a very attractive tartan and has a very unusual sett, every time my wife puts on her MacDonald sash I find myself thinking what a great looking tartan it is.

[RonPaul]

I just wanted to pass along a very BIG thanks for everyones support. This is such an awesome site, and I'm really proud to be part of the "x-clan!"

Thanks again.
--Ron Paul

[Monkey@Arms]

As for wearing this tartan, or that tartan, don't worry too much. The main thing is to know about the tartan you've chosen, and wear it respectfully. The tartan police don't exist. You won't be locked away if you wear a tartan that doesn't have a connection to you.

Beware! That's just what they want you to believe!!! Nobody expects . . .






























The Kilt Police!

Best regards,

Jake

[Macman]

The Kilt Police!

That's perfect, Jake!

[An t-Ileach]

We shouldn't overlook also that Clan membership wasn't/isn't simply a matter of descent from a common ancestor. There was an area affiliation involved, and also a sort of voluntary clientage. Clans acquired people of other births and affiliations by various means, sometimes by in-marriage, sometimes by conquest, and sometimes by immigration, too. So, if one wants to identify with a Clan, I'm sure they'd be happy to have one. I think if one does this, one should respect the history and traditions of that Clan as well - part of the membership of the "club", sort of thing.

And, of course, in Gaelic the Clan (as the Clan) often doesn't have a "Mac" prefix - Griogairaich MacGregors; Domhnaillaich Clan Donald; Caimbeulaich Campbells - which highlights that this is to a large extent a "confederation" rather than a "genealogy" concept in practice.

To amplify somewhat what MacWage wrote.

...Scotland means "Land of the Scots," who were the ones that came over from IRELAND and established "Scottish" Dalraidia as a portion of the older "Kingdom" of Dalraidia. Dalraidia was based, generally, in the modern Argyle region. The Scots were distinct from the Picts...

Dalriada straddled the North Channel and included parts of Ulster up to the boundary with the Northern O'Neills which many think to be the Bann Rivers. There were Cruidhne in Ulster, but I've read that some authorities consider them different from the Cruidhne (Picts) of "Scotland". Some authorities even suggest that the 'Erc' of the 'Sons of Erc' was a woman.

IF there was matrilinial descent, it would have died out when the Scots "overtook" the Picts (no matter WHAT form that took).
The Pictish kingdom merged with the Scot one under Kenneth MacAlpine (or whatever spelling one gives), who became king of both and "Scotified" the whole. Kenneth did inherit the Pictish title through his maternal links, though such is NOT proof that this practice was standard, unusual, or something in between.

There seems to have been quite a lot of intermarriage however between Dalriada, Ystrad Clwyd (Strathclyde), Fortriu, Fib, and Ce (the nearest Pictish kingdoms), and this may have been the mechanism by which Scotti patrilinealism replaced Pictish matrilinealism (if it existed universally among the Picts).

It wasn't until the ascention of Malcolm Canmore (Big Head) that direct paternal descent of the monarchy became standard practice, being adopted by Malcolm following his 17 years in the Anglo-Saxon royal court in England.

Could his wife Margaret, sister of Edward the Atheling, have had an input, too, do you think? It was, after all, she who was gung ho for the elimination of the Céile Dè ("Servants of God") or Culdees, so clearly had a lot of influence over him.

If one looks at the Osprey book on the "Pictish Warrior: AD 297-841" (Warrior series, 50), one gets a glimpse at the mass confusion (and the reason for it) when trying to understand the Picts...

I've got a lot of time for Osprey books (apart from having worked for them once). People often underestimate the scholarship in them, mainly because the graphics are so good - especially the colour plates. My only beef with them (which I said to them) is that the sources/references often aren't clear enough.

And, of course, there's the natural naming (or nick-naming) process. If someone is the son of a lady who was well-known in the community - say for her hair colour, like "Mairi the Redhead", he's going to be known as that especially when he shares a given name with a number of others in his family. My mother's name is Isla Jean (a close cousin of her's was Muriel Jean, same surname): I'm still sometimes known as "Daibhidh mac Ìle Shíne" to distinguish me from Muriel Jean's son David/Daibhidh.

[Andrew Green]

I'd say trace off of the closest connection to you.
I claim Gordon, because my grandmother's maiden name was Moore (and until I can dig up more on the status of clan Muir I'm sort of stuck), and that is the only line I can effectively trace. I do not know enough about my grandfather's side, but I am trying to find what I can...but that will require a lot more asking around, and getting in touch with family I haven't seen in MANY years.
At least that is how I come to my conclusions. Maternal links are no less repectable than paternal links.

[MacWage]

The Ospey books, by and large, are excellent resources and used by many historians as a "quick reference" in disciplines other than their primary. Their are a few misses and less than ideal ones (such as Konstam, with whom many priate historians disagree, as well as some of the highlander ones). Even on the "bad" ones, it is the result of one historian writing it, while others disagree with his/her ideas and hypotheses.

The Pict one is actually one of the best I've seen and it presents the various angles of disagreements and general consensus quite well. If interested, I'd HIGHLY recommend it.