formal evening dress: vest or no?

[davidlpope]

As an aside, does anyone know when Scott Adie went out of business? I recently bought a brown leather day sporran made by them and it shows very little signs of wear.

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thanks gentlemen, that's just the sort of explanations I was looking for. I'm not clear though, if MoR seems to be suggesting that the PC should always be worn with a 3 button vest or if it was more that WHEN a vest is worn with a PC it should be 3 button.

Whether or not one wears a waistcoat with the PC is a matter of personal opinion (quite often dictated by prevailing weather conditions!). But when a waistcoat is worn with the PC it should always be one of the three button variety. In my opinion the PC should always be worn with a waistcoat. I just don't think it looks "finished" without one. For really hot climes (Texas, in the summer?) the best answer is a light weight dress Argyll jacket-- with or without a waistcoat.

I realise that Highland attire can be pricey but, if I lived somewhere really warm I'd invest in a lightweight/tropical weight dress Argyll jacket long before I'd consider buying a PC.

[MacBean]

I've had little occasion for formal kilting, so don't know one coat from another too well yet. In JSFMACLJR (MacLean Jr?)'s pictures we find Cluny MacPherson and MacLean of Dochgarroch both wearing what looks like the same kind of jacket at a formal occasion. What would be the name of that jacket?

I like tradition but also encourage modernity and forward thinking. I find I like the 5-button vest and also the jacket worn by the two Clan Chattan chiefs, but the PC - well, not so much.

[davidlpope]

I've had little occasion for formal kilting, so don't know one coat from another too well yet. In JSFMACLJR (MacLean Jr?)'s pictures we find Cluny MacPherson and MacLean of Dochgarroch both wearing what looks like the same kind of jacket at a formal occasion. What would be the name of that jacket?

I like tradition but also encourage modernity and forward thinking. I find I like the 5-button vest and also the jacket worn by the two Clan Chattan chiefs, but the PC - well, not so much.

Cluny is wearing a Regulation Doublet. I believe Dochgarroch is wearing a formal Argyle jacket.

David

[JSFMACLJR]

Cluny is wearing a Regulation Doublet. I believe Dochgarroch is wearing a formal Argyle jacket.

David

Correct.

[Zardoz]

I know there is some precedent for the PC and belt/waistplate look, but I personally do not care for it. I think for formal dress the PC should be worn with a black bow-tie and a 3-button waistcoat. I have worn a black Argyll with black tie and belt/waistplate for "semi-formal" wear though.

[MacLowlife]

I think a cummerbund only looks silly with a kilt if it looks silly with a tuxedo. Granted, the waist is higher on kilts than it is on most modern formal trousers, but such was not always the case. There are some body types that really work better with cummerbunds than with waistcoats.

I do not object to a tartan bowtie, by the way, but not in the same (idzack) tartan as the kilt below. This was discussed some months back and many wise and kindly heads advised against it, but I am more convinced than ever that a little mixing can be attractive and tasteful.

The argument was that you shouldn't wear two clans' tartans at the same time, which makes good sense, unless you can claim strong ties to both. And no, I am not going to do this in the Highlands or the Western Isles. I am talking about doing it in the Southeastern US. My biggest argument in favor of the two tartan look is that the very people who recommend against two clan tartans seem not to mind two tartans from the same clan. Not so long ago, on the "silk neckties" thread, someone pointed out that a Maple Leaf Tartan kilt and a regimental necktie that had none of the same colors "matched" because they were two items worn by the same group and could be worn together.

At the risk of taking this thread even further off the track, I believe that any decision will be ( or should be) based on two sets of criteria- what is "correct" or acceptable and what looks good. What is correct tends to slide along as time goes on, mostly because some smart Aleck is always pushing the boundaries of acceptability. On the other hand, what looks good can also be influenced by fashion, but it is not necessarily bound by rules, other than some theoretical rules of aesthetics and usually by common sense.... So, if Duncan Alexander or Grant Walker or Campbell MacDonald decides to wear one tartan around his neck and another one around his waist, I would suggest the real question is "Do you really want to mix red, burgundy, and orange?" rather than "Where are the tartan police when we really need them?"

Because, let's face it, the really traditional way to wear tartan includes wearing two or three or four at once and quite possibly without any notion of clan significance. That is assuming you go for such newfangled innovations as loomed cloth, instead of good old traditional fur.

Having said all of that and raised a few hackles, I WILL say that I believe a tartan cummerbund with a tartan kilt is probably asking for trouble.

[davidlpope]

I think a cummerbund only looks silly with a kilt if it looks silly with a tuxedo.

I do not object to a tartan bowtie, by the way, but not in the same (idzack) tartan as the kilt below. This was discussed some months back and many wise and kindly heads advised against it, but I am more convinced than ever that a little mixing can be attractive and tasteful.

De gustibus non est disputandum ...

[CMcG]

<snip>
In my opinion the PC should always be worn with a waistcoat. I just don't think it looks "finished" without one.

When I purchased my Prince Charlie, it came with the three button waistcoat, <snip>

<snip>
For the PC, I think the low-cut, 3-button waistcoat with bow tie is better.

I know there is some precedent for the PC and belt/waistplate look, but I personally do not care for it. I think for formal dress the PC should be worn with a black bow-tie and a 3-button waistcoat. <snip>

<snip>
If you are discussing a Prince Charlie jacket specifically, as these typically are sold as a unit with a 3-button waistcoat, that is the first recommendation. Though many of the pictures posted show a PC worn with a belt and waistplate (sans vest), I personally don't think this looks as nice.

As for the Sherrifmuir doublet...

There seems to be lot of favour for the PC with 3 button waistcoat and mixed reviews of other looks...

I chose the PC as my main example because of its prevalence but in my wardrobe lies a Spencer jacket, which I intend to wear as a PC replacement. That's why I originally asked about the broader spectrum of (what seem to me) related jackets: Prince Charlie, Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, and Mess. Does the same apply to the other jackets?

Apologies for the inclusion of the Sheriffmuir in the OP, which Matt commented on and made me realize my mistake. I have edited it because I meant Regulation (more similar to a PC):

[Zardoz]

My primary formalwear is a Spenser jacket and 3 button vest.