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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
    It was a crime against our culture that helped defeat Gaelic as a language of commerce or higher learning. Regardless of the intentions...
    Other cultures have had similar issues. I used to work with a bunch of guys who were Italian. One who was only a few years older than me was forbidden to learn Italian growing up and always regretted not really being able to talk with his grandparents who spoke no English. His father saw him being raised to speak only English as a sign that he was not raising a dumb immigrant child.

    Conversely the 3 guys who were all about 10 years younger than me and had grown up here but had all at one point lived in Italy, all spoke both Italian and English fluently, as did their parents. Different generations seem to look at this different ways. and the more we loose something, the more we regret not holding onto it tighter.

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  3. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
    Admittedly, my patience with crossing this particular bridge is wearing rather thin.

    In Nova Scotia, as in Scotland, there have been systematic attempts to eliminate the Gaelic language and culture. People were beaten for speaking Gaelic at school and mocked for their accented English. All schools were in English (or later French).

    After decades of fighting to preserve and maintain our culture and bring it back from the verge of extinction, we have finally made the English speaking population of the province see it as an asset rather than something to be stamped out.

    I mention this only to explain the passion and pain that the subject elicits. To fight so hard to preserve and protect our Highland Scottish culture we view as precious only to be nonchalantly brushed aside by some of our native-born Scottish cousins and told we have no claim to our peoplehood is more than a difference of opinion.

    As a member of a diaspora Highland Scottish community in Canada, I take great umbridge in being told we are simply Canadian full stop and the Scottish fact of our cultural reality us unworthy of mention, label or recognition.

    Of course I'm a proud Canadian but that doesn't tell my whole story. I'm a Canadian of the Scottish variety and we have left an indelible mark on the creation of this nation.

    I obviously can't make my Scottish friends on this forum agree with me and stop thinking we are not Scottish by any definition but I will ask them to stop voicing that view on the forum once and for all.
    An uncle from my mothers side of the family, talks about being hit at school by the teacher every time the children spoke Gaelic in the school vicinity. This was in the Outer Hebrides and I estimate this to be around the late 1920's.

    My own experience shows that there is a close connection between the Gaelic speaking peoples of Canada and Scotland and apart from geographical distance, culturally they are not miles apart.

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  5. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThistleDown View Post
    Exceptions in every culture, jfraser. Slightly nasty in its meaning, Anglo means a Scot living in England by choice, but wanting to vote in Scotland. At least that's my definition off the top of my head. Maybe it means the opposite. In any case, we can all find these singular exceptions (like a Floridian in California being called a Floridian-Californian) if we search hard enough. Take it from me, it's just not done, old boy
    Thank you for your reply ThistleDown, it is much appreciated. However, I am well aware what actually goes on in Scotland and what is done and not done.

  6. #254
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    Anecdotal at best

    This last weekend I attended a Celtic/Highland games event in Tucson as the Scott Convener so sat my tent and welcomed folks of the name. I must admit I do enjoy giving tidbits of info that seem to pique the interest of those so inclined to look into their family etc. Some knowledgeable...some not.

    MacBain of MacBain (the Scots/ Lord lyon accredited Clan Chieftain) attended and was the official Clan Chieftain of the day. He visited each Clan convener for a visit with his wife and the Tanist. Richard, the Tanist, and I had a good conversation about this diaspora business and Scottishness in general.

    I mentioned both sides of the argument here...he did say he found the Council of Chieftains to be a bit of an 'old boys club' that he was not exactly comfortable with but found the Scots issues with the diaspora to be a bit childish in nature. He just shook his head and said....there are important issues in Scotland and this is not one of them.

    He said he found this to be more of an issue (the outwiths and Scottishness) with the elderly and not so important to the younger Scots (he is in his late 40's I'm guessing) so wait awhile and they'll die off (jokingly said).

    Again, anecdotal, and one mans view.
    De Oppresso Liber

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  8. #255
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    I am a person who wants to hear the opinions of others, and I both respect and value them. That does not translate
    to feeling bound by them. I hear, respect, and value the views above in this now long thread, and for the most part can understand the hows and whys of their formation, and against better judgment, join in. Those within the borders of
    Scotland have frequently (often with clear justification) bemoaned the ignorance of Scottish history exhibited by those
    "outwith" those borders. This overlooks the reality that what is known is not always what is taught by a government
    funded education system. A person educated in the northern US will almost never have a comprehensive understanding
    of the experience of those in the south between 1855 and 1875. Japanese children have a very different understanding
    of the events in China between 1935 and 1945 than do Chinese. Those who live in Scotland today often have a less
    than complete understanding of how the diaspora came to be the diaspora. Somewhere between many and most of our
    folk who came to the colonies came not of their own choice or will, but because they were sold, shipped, or forced off
    land they had defended for centuries. They came in to find a wilderness, and mostly desperate circumstances, and they flourished. On the back of hard labor and ingenuity. I have read through letters written to family back in Scotland which said, if you are forced to come here, fear not. Life is hard here, it was there. At least here there is food and here we can
    actually own land that is ours, not to be taken away by the Crown.

    Some above have apologized for speaking plainly; no need. The facts need no apology, and our opinions are our own, needing no justification or apology. For myself, if I am in need of further education or have a misapprehension of the
    facts (yes, astoundingly enough, that has happened on understandably rare occasions ), I enjoy the opportunity
    to learn something. May or may not change my opinion, but more knowledge is a good thing. I am not attempting to
    persuade anyone to agree, or to challenge one's right to a thought process.

    The facts are that Scots did not invent tartan, or the wearing of it. They did not invent pleated garments. While the kilt
    we wear today did evolve in Scotland, it was not confiscated when folk left. Those in the military, often not by choice,
    were often demobilized on foreign soil by a Crown unconcerned with the welfare or survival of those who had served
    their purpose and were no longer needed or wanted on the soil of the British Isles. Or, simply, cost too much to ship home. These men had often served in kilts, which were not confiscated. If we, their descendants, feel an affection for the garment and for the land that was home, it may just be how we were raised. Or that we hear their voices in our blood and in our hearts. I know I do; I don't pretend to speak for others. I know I received welcome in Scotland, and that it felt familiar. I'm not sure I could ask for more. The diaspora was created by the Crown, the government, the peers, and the chiefs. Their policies, the success and failures thereof, have led to our being here today and feeling the way we do. I genuinely believe it is not our intent to offend. Or pretend.

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  10. #256
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    Just a few quick corrective notes here and then I’m away from this sadly contentious thread. My friend Richard McBain told me today that he is disappointed his remarks in a casual games conversation have been misunderstood. What he recalls saying is that he is not yet comfortable in his role on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, not that the Council made him uncomfortable. His Dad, the hereditary Macbean chief, is 88 now and in looking towards the future is involving his son and heir in the traditions and obligations of clan chiefship. He said he was sorry, too, if his remark about aging was misunderstood. What he meant to get across was that if any younger generation takes umbrage with an older one’s opinion all it has to do is wait for the inevitable passing on and then it can become the older and take its turn trying to explain its firm opinions to the new younger.

    I’d say Richard is settling in very nicely because that’s certainly how traditions of hereditary chiefship work.

    If anyone here wants to read about all this diaspora stuff from an academic and not a one-sided perspective, there's nothing finer that Tom Devine's 'To the Ends of the Earth'.

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  12. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThistleDown View Post
    Just a few quick corrective notes here and then I’m away from this sadly contentious thread. My friend Richard McBain told me today that he is disappointed his remarks in a casual games conversation have been misunderstood. What he recalls saying is that he is not yet comfortable in his role on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, not that the Council made him uncomfortable. His Dad, the hereditary Macbean chief, is 88 now and in looking towards the future is involving his son and heir in the traditions and obligations of clan chiefship. He said he was sorry, too, if his remark about aging was misunderstood. What he meant to get across was that if any younger generation takes umbrage with an older one’s opinion all it has to do is wait for the inevitable passing on and then it can become the older and take its turn trying to explain its firm opinions to the new younger.

    I’d say Richard is settling in very nicely because that’s certainly how traditions of hereditary chiefship work.

    If anyone here wants to read about all this diaspora stuff from an academic and not a one-sided perspective, there's nothing finer that Tom Devine's 'To the Ends of the Earth'.
    Thanks for the correction....I may have mis understood his 'old boys club' comment but didn't mean it in a negative fashion.
    I suspect I got a bit of it correctly and part of his learning curve in speaking about these subjects is to say exactly what you mean or do not say it at all. When you have a certain authority in subjects casual comments might lead to a response one does not intend or one would rather keep private.
    I think he'll do very well in that role and have always thought so as I've seen him partake, rep the trad of hereditary Chieftains as Tanist about 5 times now.
    De Oppresso Liber

  13. #258
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    I just joined a few days ago, but I've been following this thread as a lurker. So if I may go back a sub-topic or two, I have to say that I'm a little envious of Canada since we Scottish-Americans don't remotely have the same cultural connection. Though perhaps that's part of why my Scottish heritage intrigued me, since the rest of my ancestry seems passé by comparison. I mean, Italian, German, Irish...heck, if I were to marry a woman who's Polish and Black, our children would be perfect demographic representations of New Jersey.

    Still, the main reason would be this:
    Quote Originally Posted by davidlpope View Post
    Scotland is the selected ancestry because it is the only one that has a clearly definable culture that is cool. If you go back to my g'g'g'grandparents, they are about 1/2 Ulster Scots/Scots (Mom's side) and about 1/2 English/Welsh (Dad's side). What would it look like for me to celebrate my English heritage? Morris dancing? My Welsh heritage? Choral singing? Those things can't compete with tartan and kilts and bagpipes.
    Substitute lederhosen and polka, or wine and pasta, or whatever else, and that's pretty much how I feel. Even the more recent PA Dutch culture was long gone by the time my father's family moved from Western Maryland to the Delaware Valley. And while my maternal great-grandparents were all born in Italy, the only thing that'd culturally mark me as even Italian-American is a tendency to refer to tomato sauce as "gravy". Ultimately I can't really explain why it captivates me so, any more than I can explain why I prefer punk rock to heavy metal or Star Wars over Star Trek. But ever since that fateful day in my early teens when we happened upon a Scottish cultural festival at a college my stepsister was checking out, it awakened something in me, something stirring in the deepest parts of my psyche that feels...I don't know, it just feels right.
    Last edited by Dollander; 9th November 16 at 10:27 PM.

  14. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfraser View Post
    An uncle from my mothers side of the family, talks about being hit at school by the teacher every time the children spoke Gaelic in the school vicinity. This was in the Outer Hebrides and I estimate this to be around the late 1920's.

    My own experience shows that there is a close connection between the Gaelic speaking peoples of Canada and Scotland and apart from geographical distance, culturally they are not miles apart.
    This had certainly ceased by the early 1970's when I was at school in the outer Hebridies, it was not unknown for the odd Gaelic speaking teacher to converse with pupils in Gaelic (leaving me a non Gaelic speaker somewhat lost), But most Teachers were from the mainland and only spoke English.
    The banning of Speaking Gaelic comes from a long way back, when the Lowland Scots Presbyterian church dominated the Scottish Education system which is totally separate from that in England. The lowland Scots still saw the Gaels as a race for "civilising"..
    "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give"
    Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill

  15. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    This had certainly ceased by the early 1970's when I was at school in the outer Hebridies, it was not unknown for the odd Gaelic speaking teacher to converse with pupils in Gaelic (leaving me a non Gaelic speaker somewhat lost), But most Teachers were from the mainland and only spoke English.
    The banning of Speaking Gaelic comes from a long way back, when the Lowland Scots Presbyterian church dominated the Scottish Education system which is totally separate from that in England. The lowland Scots still saw the Gaels as a race for "civilising"..
    Indeed, there were vast differences between the 1920's and the 1970's. I know in the 1970's it was possible in some Scottish schools to obtain recognised qualifications in Gaelic.

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