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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    Botriphnie,

    I got your email with this photo. We can now see where some of your confusion comes from.



    If you will notice each Tartan is a slightly different color. This is primarily due to the dye lots used by the different weavers.

    It appears to my eye that all four are the ancient colorway. The left tie may be the Modern colorway but it is labeled as Ancient. It is possible that this weaver uses colors much darker for their Modern version.
    Like this very dark version from another weaver.



    There is also the problem with the different names that the weavers use.
    One weaver uses the word "modern" to describe the colors they use, when they intend the Tartan to look like it would, when dyed with modern aniline dyes.
    They use the word 'ancient' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it were dyed with natural dyes.
    They then use the word 'weathered' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it had been out in the sun and faded.

    Other weavers use terms like 'Reproduction' and 'Muted' and even OC for their particular colors.

    But these are all the same Tartan.

    Then we sometimes run across odd or unique names for the Tartan designs themselves.

    The names you found on ScotWeb are different from the names used on the Scottish Register of Tartan. On the Register there are 6 different designs under the name MacIntyre one of them is MacIntyre Hunting, (#2845) but there is no design listed as Old MacIntyre Hunting.





    On the ScotWeb site both the MacIntyre Hunting and the Old MacIntyre Hunting are the same design.

    MacIntyre Hunting


    Old MacIntyre Hunting


    Both of these are available in Modern, Ancient, and Reproduction color versions of the exact same Tartan.

    So it is possible that one of the things you are running up against is that the fabric your kilt is made from, is from a different weaver than the ties and flashes that you were sent.

    You may also notice that on the ScotWeb site there is a Tartan listed as "New MacIntyre Hunting". This is a fabric woven by the Weaving mill Marton Mills in a 12 oz Poly/Rayon blend. This name is different from the name used by the weaver who list this as MacIntyre (New/H).



    Please note that these colors are very dark. About like the colors used in the Black Watch Tartan, Modern colorway.

    Below are the Ancient, Modern, and Weathered versions of the Black Watch Tartan. And while the colors used are very different, all are exactly the same Tartan.




    This is one of the reasons that we suggest that if you want the colors to match exactly, that you order fabric all from the same weaver. Preferably at the same time, so you get fabrics dyed from the same dye lot.


    Is there perhaps a label inside your kilt that lists, not the person who sewed the kilt, but the weaving company that wove the fabric? If not, can you inquire from the person who made your kilt, which mill they sourced their fabric from?
    Thank you for printing my photograph for me. My second attachment showed the Scotweb sample of McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient with the exact colours I wanted. The items I got match Scotweb's example of McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. Would you mind publishing my second attachment to clarify the position for readers of your forum?

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  3. #12
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    The following scanned page shows the McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient as shown on Scotweb's tartan finder. It is exactly what I wanted and ordered The item I got was what Scotweb's tartan finder labels McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. I do not understand why I cannot get what Scotweb advertise as available, please see picture.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient from Scotweb tartan finder.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	110.5 KB 
ID:	36294

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botriphnie View Post
    The following scanned page shows the McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient as shown on Scotweb's tartan finder. It is exactly what I wanted and ordered The item I got was what Scotweb's tartan finder labels McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. I do not understand why I cannot get what Scotweb advertise as available, please see picture.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient from Scotweb tartan finder.jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	110.5 KB 
ID:	36294
    The problem with the graphic is just that, it's a computer generated image rather than a photograph of an actual piece of cloth.

    Matching an older specimen without a special weave with the dye-lots matched is, unfortunately, always likely to be less that satisfactory.

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  6. #14
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    6th July 07
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    If it is of any comfort to you, matching assorted garments does not really bother those of us that have been wearing tartan for some time. Why? Well, for precisely the reason you have encountered. A twenty year old tartan is very unlikely to match a fifty year old tartan of the same Clan and a fifty year old tartan is highly unlikely to match closely a new tartan of the same Clan. Unless the cloth is from the same bolt then it is highly unlikely that there will be a match

    Again, if its any comfort to you, find some pictures of the Atholl Highlanders------Europe's only private army----- they all wear the same tartan, but quite often-----usually in fact------ the tartan of the kilt will not match their shoulder plaid and its not unusual to see three or four tartans of the same basic Clan tartan, but of different shades, on parade at the same time, but it is still the same tartan. If it does not worry them then perhaps, it should not worry you.

    I should also add, that I have no connection with Scotweb, whatsoever.

    Hope this helps.

    .
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 10th February 19 at 08:05 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.


  7. #15
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    Customer service

    Quote Originally Posted by Botriphnie View Post
    I recently found Scotweb online and successfully ordered a couple of items, however, a clan tartan tie and flashes ordered in November 2018 were a disappointment. I needed a match for my expensive handmade, made to measure kilt from a very nice lady in Kirkcaldy and used Scotweb's tartan finder to get a match. The tartan labelled McIntyre Old Hunting ANCIENT was a good match [though later Scotweb mentioned McIntyre Hunting ANCIENT was also a good match]. I ordered the tie and flashes based on their tartan finder, they delivered to my address in New Zealand. Unfortunately the items delivered were not the correct tartan even though they were labelled McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient. On Scotsweb's tartan finder I identified the tartan as McIntyre Old Hunting MODERN. Photographs of the tie and flashings lying alongside my kilt showing the contrasting tartans and were sent to Scotweb who asked me to post the items back and they would refund the postage price. Scotweb acknowledged receipt in Edinburgh. I send a photo of the tartan I needed taken from their tartan finder and asked them to make sure they sent the correct tartan this time as I needed it for a function in February. I was assured the correct items had been sent. Yesterday I received my new tie and flashes - GUESS WHAT!!!!! SAME ITEMS SENT BACK WITH INCORRECT TARTAN. I WILL NOT USE SCOTWEB AGAIN.
    Hi there,
    I'm Stewart (Retail Manager at Scotweb). Nick has asked not to step in and see if I can assist.
    I'm not in work on a Sunday, but I'll look into this an email you tomorrow.

    Thank you Steve for the excellent explanation of mill variances.

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  9. #16
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ashton View Post
    Botriphnie,

    I got your email with this photo. We can now see where some of your confusion comes from.



    If you will notice each Tartan is a slightly different color. This is primarily due to the dye lots used by the different weavers.

    It appears to my eye that all four are the ancient colorway. The left tie may be the Modern colorway but it is labeled as Ancient. It is possible that this weaver uses colors much darker for their Modern version.
    Like this very dark version from another weaver.



    There is also the problem with the different names that the weavers use.
    One weaver uses the word "modern" to describe the colors they use, when they intend the Tartan to look like it would, when dyed with modern aniline dyes.
    They use the word 'ancient' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it were dyed with natural dyes.
    They then use the word 'weathered' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it had been out in the sun and faded.

    Other weavers use terms like 'Reproduction' and 'Muted' and even OC for their particular colors.

    But these are all the same Tartan.

    Then we sometimes run across odd or unique names for the Tartan designs themselves.

    The names you found on ScotWeb are different from the names used on the Scottish Register of Tartan. On the Register there are 6 different designs under the name MacIntyre one of them is MacIntyre Hunting, (#2845) but there is no design listed as Old MacIntyre Hunting.





    On the ScotWeb site both the MacIntyre Hunting and the Old MacIntyre Hunting are the same design.

    MacIntyre Hunting


    Old MacIntyre Hunting


    Both of these are available in Modern, Ancient, and Reproduction color versions of the exact same Tartan.

    So it is possible that one of the things you are running up against is that the fabric your kilt is made from, is from a different weaver than the ties and flashes that you were sent.

    You may also notice that on the ScotWeb site there is a Tartan listed as "New MacIntyre Hunting". This is a fabric woven by the Weaving mill Marton Mills in a 12 oz Poly/Rayon blend. This name is different from the name used by the weaver who list this as MacIntyre (New/H).



    Please note that these colors are very dark. About like the colors used in the Black Watch Tartan, Modern colorway.

    Below are the Ancient, Modern, and Weathered versions of the Black Watch Tartan. And while the colors used are very different, all are exactly the same Tartan.




    This is one of the reasons that we suggest that if you want the colors to match exactly, that you order fabric all from the same weaver. Preferably at the same time, so you get fabrics dyed from the same dye lot.


    Is there perhaps a label inside your kilt that lists, not the person who sewed the kilt, but the weaving company that wove the fabric? If not, can you inquire from the person who made your kilt, which mill they sourced their fabric from?
    Hi Steve,

    How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DC Dalgleish library McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.JPG 
Views:	10 
Size:	18.9 KB 
ID:	36297

  10. #17
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botriphnie View Post
    Hi Steve,

    How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DC Dalgleish library McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.JPG 
Views:	10 
Size:	18.9 KB 
ID:	36297
    Light weight 16oz wool?

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  12. #18
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botriphnie View Post
    Hi Steve,

    How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DC Dalgleish library McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.JPG 
Views:	10 
Size:	18.9 KB 
ID:	36297

    Pardon my bluntness, but here's the deal: You just don't know enough about what you're wanting to get what you want.

    There are five major tartan mills which produce stock tartan fabric for kilts: Lochcarron, House of Edgar, Strathmore, Marton Mills, and Dalgliesh. Yes, there are other mills which produce tartan, but most of the kilts that one sees are made of fabric from one of those mills.

    If you are dead set on getting tartan items that match your current kilt (not a concern of most Highlanders in Scotland), you need to be able to specify which mill wove the fabric and which weight the fabric is in. Color scheme (ancient, modern, muted, weathered, reproduction) is pretty obvious by looking at the tartan IF one is experienced in dealing with tartan from these mills. Specifying tartan name, mill, fabric weight, and color scheme will then make sure that you're getting exactly what you want.

    From the looks of it, I'd guess your kilt is from Lochcarron fabric, probably 13oz., in the "Ancient" color scheme. The tie and flashes are made by House of Edgar in their "Old Colours". Most of their tartan is 13oz., so that's what I'd guess as to weight. Lochcarron makes ties in 11oz fabric that will be a closer match to your kilt, but not perfect, as the shades used in those two weights of fabric are slightly different. Ditch the digital tartan finder programs. Order swatches from different mills if you need to, to get what you want.

    Or, ditch the idea of a tartan tie and tartan flashes. They're really not the thing, anyway...
    Last edited by davidlpope; 11th February 19 at 11:45 AM.

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidlpope View Post
    Or, ditch the idea of a tartan tie and tartan flashes. They're really not the thing, anyway...
    Precisely and think of the time and angst it will save.
    If you are going to do it, do it in a kilt!

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  16. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpa View Post
    Precisely and think of the time and angst it will save.
    And think of the time and angst saved by arriving here, leveraging the combined experience and knowledge.
    Which is one of the things I have most enjoyed here. Folk who know me in person think of me as someone
    with a fairly large storehouse of (mostly useless) knowledge. I think of me as needing to know much more
    about nearly everything, as who among us knows enough about much of anything? We know some about much,
    and we function at a level of competence that mostly works. But most of the exceptional folk I've been
    blessed to know have felt that the more they learned about most subjects just revealed how much more
    there was to learn than they had ever realized existed.

    So, welcome, Botriphnie. Jump in head first and enjoy a deep and broad pool of stuff collected by a bunch
    of good folk always ready to throw together some assistance.
    Last edited by tripleblessed; 12th February 19 at 11:45 AM.

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