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  1. #71
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    Tobinn, what do you know about "allyness"????...

    Anyone familiar with the term will understand what the real attitude to conformity is within the forces....

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father Bill View Post
    A rather rough response and yes it is a personal attack on me the way you've chosen to word it Allan, despite your reservations to the contrary. I knew that there would be those who would disagree, but didn't expect to be attacked personally. I'm disappointed in you.

    And, besides that, you've missed the point, namely that it's about judgement and decision making, and I would know immediately that here's someone who doesn't know, or hasn't bothered to consider the culture of the organization to which he's applying. That's why I would wonder if he could make the split second decisions and assessments necessary as a police officer, which is largely about the judgements and decisions of individual officers.

    In many years of interviewing and staff selection as a headmaster, I knew by the time I greeted someone and seated them with the interview team what the team's decision would be before I said a word to make my own input to the discussion, so yes, I have learned skills that help me to discern what makes an individual fit into the organization. I just smiled, listened and said nothing, and the group, after the interview and discussions always confirmed my original judgements.

    I know what I'm doing, Allan. You have to, to handle a large staff, a much larger political community beyond, and multi-million dollar facility and budgets. The police similarly have to know what they're doing and they're not looking for mavericks who will buck the system. In the split-second that an officer must make a decision on how to react, there's no time for that.

    In this particular situation, it's not a matter of looking beyond appearances but rather wondering why someone didn't "get the memo" about proper dress for this organization. Take a look back through the thread from those who are experienced in policing. Yes, the police are looking for diversity, but for a consistent response from those of diverse experiences.

    As a priest, of course I patiently look far beyond appearances and in general, ignore them. They're of no importance to my role although they may or may not give me clues about what may be troubling an individual. As a headmaster, I looked beyond them in students and their parents, but as a hiring authority I needed to take those into consideration and consider the kinds of decisions the individual was likely to make to the benefit or detriment of the children and the rest of my staff and community.

    So, as a headmaster, would I hire a teacher who showed up in a kilt? Absolutely, all else being in place. Why not? If s/he were well turned-out and neither over- nor under-dressed, it would make an interesting discussion point, but that's for the school system, not the police services.
    Well apologies for any offence caused, but then I was rather disappinted with your original post which didn't seem to reflect well.

    The irony is you talk about individualism in your reply and the importance of an individual officers judgement but then espouse a herd mentality?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Thomson View Post
    Well apologies for any offence caused, but then I was rather disappinted with your original post which didn't seem to reflect well.

    The irony is you talk about individualism in your reply and the importance of an individual officers judgement but then espouse a herd mentality?
    Thank you Allan. Apologies accepted.

    There is a difference between individual experience and perspective informing the decision and the ability of a police force or similar organization to present a united, and more important, a consistent front. I would see that choice of clothing to be an indicator of someone who wouldn't participate in our group's consistency.

    If I may ask (and you need not answer) what is your leadership/ management background Allan? You have some small indication of mine.
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster, lover of God, people (most of them!) dogs, joy, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, dreamer, traditionalist, bon-vivant, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Sinclair.

  4. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Father Bill For This Useful Post:


  5. #74
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    I am old enough that I have seen a lot change in this world with regard to discrimination and prejudice. By in large I beleive in a rough and tumble way we are moving to a better place. At times the right and wrong of it all get very confusing. At this stage in my life I care little what others think of me but I do care deeply that as I go to sleep at night my conscience does not trouble me and that I have spent my day being fair to others. Keep in mind that Father Bill and I may live in the most diverse country on earth these days.

    What I have come to accept is that I will not judge others based on the things they can not change, race, ethnic background, place of birth, sexual orientation or command of English language. However I think I am perfectly within my right to judge others on the choices they have made. Be disrespectful of others, use vulgar language, or dress inappropriately for a particular situation I reserve the right to think less of you.
    Last edited by Singlemalt; 10th January 19 at 03:57 PM.

  6. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    There are certain professions where "sticking out" or "daring to differ" may be seen as positive attributes. Being a police officer isn't one of them. In fact, short of being in the military, it is one of the least-favourable professions for being individualistic. Discipline and protocol are important in these professions, and for very good reason.


    Dress sense is a personal choice, unlike the other things you mentioned. How we choose to present ourselves is universally seen as a statement to society about who we are, what kind of choices we make, and with which segment of society we identify. For (what should be) obvious reasons, assessing someone on the basis of dress sense is a very good way of sorting the proverbial wheat from the chaff. It is, and has always been, a perfectly valid form of social measurement.
    Relgion is apersonal choce,albeit one which is often guidedby upbringing.

    Protocos are important in many jobs requiring spl second decisions wit life or death implications.That doesn't mean one has to up to an inteview dressed in offce wear to get those jobs and that not being dressed ina certain way indicate an unsuitability for that job..

  7. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father Bill View Post
    Thank you Allan. Apologies accepted.

    There is a difference between individual experience and perspective informing the decision and the ability of a police force or similar organization to present a united, and more important, a consistent front. I would see that choice of clothing to be an indicator of someone who wouldn't participate in our group's consistency.

    If I may ask (and you need not answer) what is your leadership/ management background Allan? You have some small indication of mine.
    I prefer not to talk about work online. I have been required to show leadership in some job I've done. I have worn a uniform for a lot of the roles I've undertaken in my profession. During my time in my f ield it has bought me into contact with members of the police force on ocasions. My job has inolved spltsecond decisions with major implictions whch often required following policy and procedure. It depend wha you define as management my role involved some mngment of indivduals.

  8. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    Dress sense is a personal choice, unlike the other things you mentioned. How we choose to present ourselves is universally seen as a statement to society about who we are, what kind of choices we make, and with which segment of society we identify. For (what should be) obvious reasons, assessing someone on the basis of dress sense is a very good way of sorting the proverbial wheat from the chaff. It is, and has always been, a perfectly valid form of social measurement.
    I think Tobus nailed it. If someone comes to an interview in their pajamas it shows that they don't care about the job enough to bother with even the minimum effort of getting dressed. If someone comes to an interview in a tuxedo (a la stepbrothers) it indicates that the job and the interview is a joke to them.

    As a kilt-wearer, I am biased towards the kilt. Someone wearing a kilt to an interview would not automatically be dismissed but I would definitely ask after it and my judgement would depend on the answer. Of course the problem, even if they answer in a satisfactory way, is that we are discussing their clothes rather than the job and their qualifications. And that is my stance as a kilt-wearer.

    Now someone who is not a kilt-wearer may very well see them in the same light as someone wearing a tux to an interview. Showing off or not taking things seriously. You only get one chance to make a first impression and I would avoid anything that distracts from my qualifications for the position.

    Especially for a recruitment interview. They surely want people who are intelligent and diverse in ability/experience but they also need to be capable of being trained and molded into police officers. As with any job, your exceptional qualities will be noticed in your performance long after your interview has been forgotten.

    I honestly don't see what advantage there would be in risking a job interview by wearing a kilt. What qualities does a kilted police candidate demonstrate over his peers beyond sticking out like a sore thumb? Will he be better at talking to communities? Will he be better at paperwork?

    If anything, the desire to peacock might indicate that they'd make a lousy undercover agent.
    Last edited by FossilHunter; 10th January 19 at 04:09 PM.
    Descendant of the Gillises and MacDonalds of North Morar.

  9. #78
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    I guess if one is applying for a position as “Kilt Police” it would be acceptable, other wise I wouldn’t risk being thrown into the court of public opinion.

  10. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Me cousin Jack For This Useful Post:


  11. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singlemalt View Post
    or dress inappropriately for a particular situation I reserve the right to think less of you.
    That seems quite harsh: that you would think less of a person because of how they dress. Ultimately, you think and feel how you do ... but I couldn't let that comment go without adding my own.

    Jonathan

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  13. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthk View Post
    That seems quite harsh: that you would think less of a person because of how they dress. Ultimately, you think and feel how you do ... but I couldn't let that comment go without adding my own.

    Jonathan
    It seems quite legitimate to me to measure people's ability to use good judgement when you're selecting them for good judgement. Not so much when you're there to care for them, but this is a selection process we're discussing.
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Retired Parish Priest & Elementary Headmaster, lover of God, people (most of them!) dogs, joy, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, dreamer, traditionalist, bon-vivant, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Sinclair.

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