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  1. #1
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    someone please tell me definitively:

    okay, now, i know this topic has probably been brought up multiple times. and i've searched for my answers in the archives, but to no concrete avail. so, someone please tell me, once and for all, what is the deal with irish kilts? did/do the irish actually wear kilts, formally or informally (outside of pipe corps)? Are there really irish tartans? if so, are there clan tartans, or just regional tartans? are there irish clans? thanks for letting me be ignorant! cheers!

  2. #2
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    Re: someone please tell me definitively:

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus
    okay, now, i know this topic has probably been brought up multiple times. and i've searched for my answers in the archives, but to no concrete avail. so, someone please tell me, once and for all, what is the deal with irish kilts? did/do the irish actually wear kilts, formally or informally (outside of pipe corps)? Are there really irish tartans? if so, are there clan tartans, or just regional tartans? are there irish clans? thanks for letting me be ignorant! cheers!
    clans,dunno, yes to the rest. 8)
    http://histclo.hispeed.com/style/ski...ilt/kilti.html
    igore the user name and password thing

    http://www.clanarans.com/ca/catalog/

    http://www.kilts.com/irishkilts.htm

    http://www.doyle.com.au/tartan_irish.htm
    hope this helps.

    I used google search, "irish kilts"
    and "irish tartan"

  3. #3
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    Irish tartans are regional rather than clan associated.

  4. #4
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    Re: someone please tell me definitively:

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus
    Did/do the irish actually wear kilts, formally or informally (outside of pipe corps)?
    Absolutely. Remember that Ireland (a long time ago) was THICK with Scottish inhabitants. Naturally, this would incorporate the two traditional dresses. The kilt became as commonplace as you would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by seamus
    Are there really irish tartans? If so, are there clan tartans, or just regional tartans?
    To this day, there are many Irish Family name tartans, district tartans, regional tartans, Corporate tartans, National tartans, and specialty tartans. Rather than associate with clans or "tribes", the Irish were designated by the land. As long as you know where your family is from, it's easy to get YOUR tartan.

    If you would like, you can head to Alexis Malcolm's site and see what's currently available.

    http://www.alexismalcolmkilts.bigste...generic22.html
    Arise. Kill. Eat.

  5. #5
    macwilkin is offline
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    Irish Tartans...

    To add to Jimmy's post, the Clan Doyle Society in Australia has a nice page on their web site devoted to the Irish family and regional tartans:

    http://www.doyle.com.au/tartan_irish.htm

    Cheers,

    T.

  6. #6
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    thanks all, i appreciate it. i've got a pretty little gordon tartan formal kilt coming from macleods, so i'm probably set for a while.

    rather, my parents are set spending that much money on me for a while

  7. #7
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    You should also have a look at The Irish Kilt Club website.
    http://www.somebody.to/irishkiltclub.htm

  8. #8
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    hey jimmy,this isn't the first time I have seen the words "Ireland" and "THICK" in the same sentence.

  9. #9
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
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    I'm afraid I have to jump in and burst some bubbles here. Did the Irish people, historically, wear the kilt? The answer is no. I know with the advent of Irish tartans, Welsh tartans, Cornish tartans and the like, people now tend to think of the kilt as a "Celtic" thing, but really we must remember its originas as a Scottish garment.

    There are a ton of myths out there telling us that the early Irish wore the kilt, or a form of it. Sorry, it just isn't so. Read my article on the Early History of the Kilt at http://www.albanach.org. The first part of it deals with the question of an Irish kilt. You can get even more information from Old Irish and Highland Dress by H. F. McClintock -- the book on the subject.

    In essence, we have to remember that the Gaels began to migrate from Ireland into western Scotland (what is now Argyll) in the sixth century or thereabouts. About a thousand years before the earliest form of the kilt -- the belted plaid -- was developed. These people wore no form of kilt at all.

    The belted plaid developed in the Highlands of Scotland from a long mantle (or plaid) that was at first worn draped over the shoulders as a cloak. Eventually, someone came up with the bright idea of taking the length of coth and belting it at the waist, naturally gathering the material into loose folds and pleats. This was the belted plaid, or feilidh-mhor.

    We first read of this garment being worn in a document from 1594 entitled The Life od Red Hugh O'Donnell. This is an Irish document, and in it the Scottish Hebridean soldiers who are employed in Ireland are described as wearing these belted plaids -- and it specifically mentions that you can instantly tell them apart from the Irish because of their clothes. The Irish wore nothing like it.

    The feilidh-mhor, about a hundred plus years later would develop into the feilidh-beag (philabeg), and the philabeg would, at the end of the eighteenth century, develop into the tailored kilt. You can read more in my article, "Generations of Highland Dress." But all of this development happened in Scotland.

    So what about Ireland? Well, a large influx of Scottish people did move back into Ireland in the seventeenth century (who became known as the Ulster Scots, or here in the States as the Scots-Irish). But these people were Lowland Scots and did not wear the kilt.

    Fast forward to the nineteenth century, and you have the kilt being worn now not as the everyday dress of the Scottish Highlander, but instead as the ceremonial dress of Scottish people everywhere -- Lowland and Highland. And just like you had people of Scottish descent in America wearing the kilt, so you had people of Scottish descent in Ireland wearing the kilt. So yes, in northern Ireland especially, you had kilted pipe bands and the like. Even kilted regiments.

    About the same time, you started to have some people in Ireland making the claim that the kilt was a native Irish dress that the Irish should re-adopt as a symbol of their Gaelic culture. Of course, you also had Scottish people claiming that the kilt and clan tartans and the whole bit dated back thousands of years in their country as well. They were both wrong (again, see Old Irish and Highland Dress).

    In the twentieth century you saw the adoption of the kilt as a symbol of Celtic pride by people not only in Ireland but in Wales, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, Brittany, etc.

    Not that these people should not or could not wear the kilt. They are more than welcome to wear it! As a person of Scottish descent, I'm proud that they think so highly of the Scottish National Dress that they wish to adopt it. But the idea that the kilt was historically worn in these countries is just factually wrong, and should not be bought into.

    Now, changing subjects briefly, you ask about tartans. It used to be that if an Irishman wished to buy a kilt, he would opt for a solid emerald green, or a solid saffron. Either of which is still a fine choice. But, again, in more modern times, the Irish tartans have been developed, many of which are quite striking.

    Not that the Irish people never wore tartan patterns. They did, just not with any family or regional signifigance.

    Most of the Irish tartans you will come across are regional. See www.district-tartans.com. Some are quite old. The Ulster tartan, in particular, dates back to c. 1600. (Though note it was not adopted as the Ulster tartan until the twentieth century). The House of Edgar, in the 1990s, developed a whole line of Irish county tartans which have been hugely popular. These are quite attractive, and what most people think of when they think of Irish tartans. Note, though, that they have not been officially adopted by the counties. Edgar aslo developed the Irish National tartan.

    Lochcarron, around the same time, designed tartans for the Irish provinves. They also designed three "All Ireland" tartans.

    When it comes to Irish family tartans, there are a few on record. A few are legintimate, in that they have the approval of the families. The Cian tartan, for instance, was designed and approved by the Clan Cian Society. Most Irish family tartans on record (as recorded by the STS, STA, etc) supposedly come from a book entitled Clans Origininaux, dating to 1880, the only known copy of which is at Pendelton Mills in Oregon. The STA was able to recieve photos of the contents pages of the book recently. To their surprise, the book listed many common Scottish tartans, but not a single Irish tartan! So where did all these Irish family tartans on record come from??? It's a mystery still being worked out.

    Lastly, there are also some "Irish family" tartans out there that are nothing but trade inventions. I won't name names, but there are kilt making firms out there who, when someone calls looking for a "O'Cleary" tartan (just a made up example), will say, "Sure, we'll send you one." Then they make up a tartan on the spot, usually by changing a few colors in a known Scottish tartan, and name it "O'Cleary." Fine if they are telling the customer that's what they are doing. Not fine if they are selling their product as an authentic thing.

    But if anyone has any questions about a particular Irish district or family tartan, and where it came from, just shoot me an email or post it here and I'll let you know about it.

    So, to sum up this incredibly long post -- did the Irish historically wear kilts? No. Can an Irishman (or anyone else, for that matter) wear the kilt today if he chooses? Absolutely!

    Aye,
    Matt Newsome

  10. #10
    Graham's Avatar
    Graham is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
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    Yeh, that's just what I was going to say

    Very very interesting Matthew, thanks again for your wealth of knowledge.

    I thought that the Irish invented the kilt and exported the idea to Scotland, just the same as they invented the highland pipes and gave them to the Scots as a joke

    (only kidding, I've just come from a meeting of our local Pipe band)

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