Sept versus Clan

[Tobus]

Being an American, where the idea of clans (or even genealogy in general) don't mean anything, I'm terribly confused about something.

All the research I've done on my mother's family (Kilpatrick) leads to Clan Colquhoun, where it is listed as a sept. But the history of Clan Colquhoun says this (quoted from the Wikipedia article):

"In the 13th century Maol Domhnaich, Earl of Lennox granted the lands of Colquhoun, located in Dunbartonshire, to Humphry de Kilpatrick. Humphry’s son, Ingelram de Colquhoun, who lived in the reign of Alexander III, was the first person recorded as taking Colquhoun as a surname."

So it seems that the Colquhoun name (or clan) did not even exist prior to this. Humphry's son took the name Colquhoun and magically sprouted a clan based on that name? And if so, where did the "lands of Colquhoun" come from, to be granted to Humphry? I can't find any history of Colquhoun before this, or how there were these "lands of Colquhoun" before Colquhoun existed as a name.

But my real question is why Kilpatrick is considered a sept of Colquhoun instead of something else. Since the name Colquhoun was first used by a Kilpatrick (and according to most purists, you can't just randomly change your name to identify with the clan you like; it must be given to you by your father), why would the clan not be called Clan Kilpatrick?

Either the rules concerning clan affiliation are more loose than the experts say they are, or I'm missing something. By rights, since the entire Colquhoun Clan history came from a Kilpatrick, wouldn't it be more appropriate for them to have kept that name?

Not that I expect them to change it now due to my sentiments, of course, but it does seem to disagree with what people claim is "proper". And being of the Kilpatrick line, I don't understand why Kilpatricks are seen as a sept to this clan when it was a Kilpatrick that was the first to take the Colquhoun name.

Can someone explain it to me? Is there some other history I haven't seen? I fully admit to knowing virtually nothing of the intricacies of the Scottish clan system and such.

[davedove]

Be very careful applying what some think of as "proper" nowadays when you are doing historical research. When you are looking at history, you can only take what actually happened, and even then you are limited by who recorded it and their biases.

Also be wary of Wikipedia. It is a good place to start and point you in the right direction, but don't take anything there (or other sources for that matter) as gospel. Always check other sources as well.

[raibeart_dubh]

From Electric Scotland (http://www.electricscotland.com/webc.../colquho2.html):

"The immediate ancestor of the family of Luss was Humphry de Kilpatrick, who in the reign of Alexander II., not later than 1246, obtained from Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, a grant of the lands and barony of Colquhoun, in the parish of Old or West Kilpatrick, pro servitio unius militis, &c., and in consequence assumed the name of Colquhoun, instead of his own. His grandson, Ingelram, third Colquhoun, lived in the reign of Alexander III."

It seems that perhaps the name is derived from a place, if the website is correct in its information.

[Tobus]

It seems that perhaps the name is derived from a place, if the website is correct in its information.

Ahhh. So then perhaps "Colquhoun" was the name of the lands, like a regional name over which someone was the baron, and when it was granted to Humphry, he took the name of the land? That would make sense, I suppose, although your quote also refers to the land as being in the parish of Old or West Kilpatrick, which suggests to me that the land of Colquhoun was part of a greater area that was named for Kilpatrick. It seems odd for him to have taken the name of a small piece of land instead of keeping his original name that was the same as the greater area.

If that were the case, how did the name Kilpatrick become a minor sept of the greater Colquhoun?

[HeathBar]

If I remember correctly most family names were derrived from places and occupations. And from the bit that I read already Kilpatrick was also a place. So maybe at that time family names did not carry as much importance as they do today.

[Chas]

From Electric Scotland (http://www.electricscotland.com/webc.../colquho2.html):

"The immediate ancestor of the family of Luss was Humphry de Kilpatrick, who in the reign of Alexander II., not later than 1246, obtained from Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, a grant of the lands and barony of Colquhoun, in the parish of Old or West Kilpatrick, pro servitio unius militis, &c., and in consequence assumed the name of Colquhoun, instead of his own. His grandson, Ingelram, third Colquhoun, lived in the reign of Alexander III."

It seems that perhaps the name is derived from a place, if the website is correct in its information.

I cannot speak for the data, but the last sentence is totally correct.

We are talking of a time when last/sur/family names were not used and for the most part did not exist. It was only when a man left his village that he needed to identify himself.

In general last names fall into one of 4 categories:

1. Son of (or belonging to): O'Brian, MacDonald, ap Owell
2. Where you come from: Ashton, Gaunt, Colquhoun
3. Trade: Miller, Baker, Tyler, Fletcher
4. Physical appearance: Dunn, Longbottom, Grosvenor.

Your Kilpatrick took the name of the land where he lived

Regards

Chas

[MacBubba45]

I don't think anyone knows where the place name "Colquhoun" came from. (Pronounced ka-hoon). Humphry de Kilpatrick, for whatever reason, took the place name as his own as stated above, so the area was called Colquhoun before the land grant and barony. Why this is has been lost in 800 years of history. I admit it's curious and, I think, unparalleled in Scottish history. Technically the chief's line is descended from a Kilpatrick. Sorry,I know this doesn't answer any of your questions; I guess because there is no satisfactory answer.

I guess you know that Kil/Kirkpatrick has it's own crest and I think their own family tartan? That hand held bloody dagger with the motto "I Make Sure" is the story of Roger Kirkpatrick going back in the church to finish off Robert The Bruce's failed assassin John Comyn.

Kilpatrick became a "sept" of Colquhoun because there were families in the area that had that name (all the Kilpatricks that were there didn't change their name). I've always tried to explain that sept names were there by a happy accident that they lived within control of the dominant family that rose to power in the area as the clan system formed. In another post I gave the example of my last name being a "Distrct" name: my family lived in Glasgow which formed it's own "government" and did not have a clan chief when the other clans were forming. The clan cheif was essentially the "governor" of the area he was in and the surrounding families came under his wing as a sept.

[macwilkin]

I don't think anyone knows where the place name "Colquhoun" came from. (Pronounced ka-hoon). Humphry de Kilpatrick, for whatever reason, took the place name as his own as stated above, so the area was called Colquhoun before the land grant and barony. Why this is has been lost in 800 years of history. I admit it's curious and, I think, unparalleled in Scottish history. Technically the chief's line is descended from a Kilpatrick. Sorry,I know this doesn't answer any of your questions; I guess because there is no satisfactory answer.

I guess you know that Kil/Kirkpatrick has it's own crest and I think their own family tartan? That hand held bloody dagger with the motto "I Make Sure" is the story of Roger Kirkpatrick going back in the church to finish off Robert The Bruce's failed assassin John Comyn.

Kilpatrick became a "sept" of Colquhoun because there were families in the area that had that name (all the Kilpatricks that were there didn't change their name). I've always tried to explain that sept names were there by a happy accident that they lived within control of the dominant family that rose to power in the area as the clan system formed. In another post I gave the example of my last name being a "Distrct" name: my family lived in Glasgow which formed it's own "government" and did not have a clan chief when the other clans were forming. The clan cheif was essentially the "governor" of the area he was in and the surrounding families came under his wing as a sept.

Whoa there pardner...let's see your source that John "The Red" Comyn was going to assissinate the Bruce in Dumfries. If anyone is deserving of the title, it is the Bruce in that regard -- of course, being a Comyn/Cumming, I am a bit biased.

Todd

[MacBubba45]

Whoa there pardner...let's see your source that John "The Red" Comyn was going to assissinate the Bruce in Dumfries. If anyone is deserving of the title, it is the Bruce in that regard -- of course, being a Comyn/Cumming, I am a bit biased.
Todd

Hee hee. Well, that's what Randy Bruce told me.

[macwilkin]

Hee hee. Well, that's what Randy Bruce told me.

Uh huh. I wouldn't stand next to him in kirk.

T.