Scotweb, kilts, and shipping to the US

[Nick Fiddes]

I feel there is little I can add to the points I made earlier. I accept you did not set out to be malicious. But 'facts' are always selective, and I have to say I do feel very hurt that you chose to single us out for attack in the way you have, when I sincerely believe our policies and practices are no different from any other vendor working with the services available within the law. Whatever your personal experiences (which will differ from those of other customers) I can assure you we have researched this repeatedly and extensively, and if there were a reliable service that let us legally ship goods duty-free we would be using it. If you were setting out to make a general point about shipping from overseas, perhaps doing so in a more general forum might have been fairer. However you clearly feel very strongly indeed that your perspective is both right and reasonable so I shall not argue further.

But I do not accept for a moment that my point about saving VAT is weak. Most customers are not conveniently flying from the UK to the US at the time they wish to purchase. The fact is that you're getting the goods at almost exactly the same price that we pay (and with the pound in freefall, at around 2/3 the real price to you only a year or two ago). If you wish to buy locally, by all means do so. But if you choose to purchase from overseas, please do not blame our small family business for your nation's laws.

We in the UK pay duty when we import stuff from the US too, you know.

[KiltedPilot]

Nick,

I completely appreciate that you are well intentioned here, but it seem to me that you are unaware of some facets of how customs duties work in practice. Can I give you some information that might illuminate the issue for you.

There are two major issues here.

1) national mail carriers charge much less to process duties -- $20-$25 less. (This is their fee ON TOP of the actual duties).

2) national mail carriers, working in conjunction with the government customs agency who actually review the paperwork, err on the side of caution in deciding when to charge duty (some less charitable say they are lazy, but the effect is the same). Private brokers err on the site of charging duties -- there is less risk for them that way, and it profits them anyway (they get paid to process duties).

So ... from a customs perspective ... it is best to have a parcel imported via USPS in US, or Canada Post in Canada, or Royal Mail in UK. To achieve this usually requires that it was sent using a national mail service by the supplier -- Royal Mail or Parcelforce in the case of the suppliers in the UK.

To give you an example, last year I ordered a kilt from a US kilt maker, to be delivered to me in Canada. The order value was $155. I requested USPS delivery (the US national postal service) in writing and verbally. The kilt maker made a simple mistake and sent it UPS instead. UPS tried to charge my $55 in taxes, duties and fees, $30 of that total being their rather exorbitant customs processing fees.

Talking with the supplier, we agreed that I'd reject the delivery, in which case UPS would cancel the importation, and return the parcel to the kilt maker. The kilt maker resent the parcel via USPS as requested, fully declared, and the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) waived duty on the delivery.

So the difference in import costs, between UPS and USPS, was $55 to me.

Now, even if CBSA had charged me duty, the fee that Canada Post charges me for processing a parcel is only $5-$8, versus $30 for UPS (similar for FedEx). There is a similar differential in the US. I'd have still been $25 worse off with the UPS delivery.

Bottom line here is that a "free upgrade to FedEx" is probably a "$20-$25" increase in customs processing fees to the customer, at minimum, PLUS a far higher chance that customs duties will be applied.

One key facet to understand is, in the case of FedEx for instance, FedEx importation is handled by "FedEx Trade Networks", a separate profit centre in FedEx, who's economic interest is aligned with charging duty (and thus collecting processing fees) whenever possible.

Again ... I intend no criticism in my post ... but purely hope to convey a customer's practical view of the relative costs to help you improve your service.

Mike

[KiltedPilot]

FM,

A potential tip for you.

About 4 years ago I had a parcel unexpected delivered by FedEx. I didn't mind the duties and taxes (well -- we all PREFER not to pay them!), but what I greatly disliked was FedEx's very high customs processing fee. If I understand correctly, you were charged $20? I've been charged up to $25-$30 in the past.

(Note, some higher end FedEx services include free customs clearance. Usually the International Priority Air ones).

In my case, I called FedEx and asked them how I returned the parcel as I was unhappy with the charges (the customs invoice came after delivery). FedEx were immediately very open to negotiation, and knocked about $20 off their charges. I argued that $5 was a more reasonable fee for customs brokerage, and they accept that argument.

So ... you might want to try haggling with FedEx. They will only haggle about THEIR fees, not the duties and taxes.

I have found that UPS refuse to negotiate at all -- they prefer to return the parcel.

Hope that helps.

Mike

[ForresterModern]

In the future I may consider refusing orders not shipped by the requested routes, especially if it is FEDEX. This time I was just happy to have my items regardless of the courier---well at least the kilt (the cap was an entirely different set of problems but we will not go there). The only other time I got dinged by customs, as described in my second post on the order for two kilts simultaneously, FEDEX called me BEFORE delivery to set up my account with them and charge the customs fees IN ADVANCE of delivery, with delivery only occurring after I had paid the duties and the then discovered handling fees. This time, the kilt and cap arrived with no attached or preceding FEDEX customs documents, so I thought all was good until 10 days later when the FEDEX bill arrived by mail.

KP, thanks for the information, and also for your more thorough explanation of why my warning should be understood and considered.

Nick, again this is not a directed attack at Scotweb, but as the only UK based vendor that I have used who advertises on this forum, and as the particular statements made by your service personnel as explanation for Scotweb's practices may not have been universal for other non-named UK-based vendors, I felt this was the appropriate forum for dissemination of this company specific information. As there are free trade agreements in the North American countries, with the other forum advertising and non-advertising vendors and artisans I have ordered from in North America I have not had to and do not have to deal with these issues. And along those lines the North American customers do not have to be concerned about these issues when ordering from North American vendors. Again, just stating the facts.


j

[Nick Fiddes]

Mike, the truth is I'm really quite upset by this thread. (In fact, not just me, as your posting really hurt my staff yesterday afternoon.) This experience is actually making me seriously question my continued participation in Xmarks at all. Please be assured I'm not directing this at you personally, as I do see where you are coming from and know that your venting your unhappiness was not intended maliciously. But I think it's only fair to be upfront about this. And I'd value any other members' thoughts here too.

You may well have cause to complain if as you say telephone messages were not recorded. I have no way now of even looking into this. But your general points I feel are quite unfair, partly as I've said because you're criticising us for things that are far beyond our control or are entirely irrelevant, and partly because otherwise you're extrapolating from your own individual experiences (in the way that people always do) while we can only base our decisions on the laws that apply to everyone and on aggregate evidence of what is best for most customers. In a situation where the rules are applied haphazardly and everyone's experience is different, human nature dictates that I'm never going to convince you that yours is not the only way to see things. And the more I try, the more I'll simply dig myself into a hole where we come across as the loser.

My real problem here is that I'm afraid that the recent management changes to this forum may mean it's no longer helpful for me to take part here. This would be really sad for me, as I've both greatly enjoyed being involved in this great community, and found it really useful as a source of direct and frank two-way interactions. I'd like to emphasise that I've no problem with complaints, in fact I value them. But I do have a real business problem if this forum simply becomes a 'knock Scotweb' forum where we become the Aunt Sally for anyone to sound off about their individual love-hate relationship towards different courier companies, or a bunch of gripes about taxes, government, corporations, and the fact that shopping overseas involves different calculations than shopping locally. And frankly I think that's what most of your points amount to.

The previous moderators used to do an excellent job of ensuring that detailed service complaints directed at individual companies were first sent to those companies themselves, I think to try to ensure their supporters and advertisers got fair treatment for just this sort of reason. If Steve's policies in this way are different (and I'll be bringing this question to his attention) it will very much change the flavour of these forums. I have a small child and a business to run and frankly I just don't have time to spend endless hours taking part in a lose-lose argument about international shipping law that has already been done to death countless times before on xmarks, and doubtless will be again. (BTW one detail I failed to mention is that the national carriers do 'lose' consignments far far more often.) I've given you the facts as we see them, and tried to explain why we use the services we do in our customers' best interests. And as I've said, if there was a better alternative we'd take it.

But that's not the main problem. My concern is that if the very act of participating in xmarks becomes more negative than positive for our company, I may have no choice but to back off. I'm really not sure where I stand on this right now. And I won't be stomping off into the sunset in the heat of feeling hurt or based on just one such experience. But it's certainly woken me up to the possibility that Xmarks may have changed in a subtle but important way. I'd really value other people's thoughts here too.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Nick,

I hope you don't leave. I don't think that my opinion of your company has gone down at all because of this thread. I know it must be really stressful for you to have something like this on the top of your forum but the way you have responded has been gracious.

I have enjoyed using your tartan designer (and may get tartan woven from it.) I would never have run across that tool had I not been on here.

[Mael Coluim]

Nick,
You are right there have been changes with ownership. Some good others not. Some have left or participate less because of them. That’s life. XMarks still remains the best kilt forum.

Whether you stay or go, you will still get my business. Hope you stay as I want that 10% discount. More importantly I value the information you have shared in the past. You and your company are valued here.

As with some threads here at XMarks, the point then counter point goes on to ad nauseam. Forrest Modern made his point and you yours. I see both your points of view. There is no winner or loser here. Go take care of business and your child and let this thread slip in to oblivion.

[Sir William]

Nick,
You are right there have been changes with ownership. Some good others not. Some have left or participate less because of them. That’s life. XMarks still remains the best kilt forum.

Whether you stay or go, you will still get my business. Hope you stay as I want that 10% discount. More importantly I value the information you have shared in the past. You and your company are valued here.

Nick,

I echo Mael's comment's as well (see my post on Guitarmatt's "Excellent Scotweb Service). I've used Scotweb more often than I have most U.S. based companies. While sometimes "custom orders" have been a bit slower in delivery than I'd like, your staff has been very courteous in keeping me informed, in one case advising me that it might take several more months and did I wish to cancel (I didn't and the order arrived a few weeks later).

[KiltedPilot]

Mike, the truth is I'm really quite upset by this thread.

Nick, I think you might be confusing me and Jeff (FM).

[guitarmatt]

As an American who's been living in Edinburgh for 4 years now, I'd just like to say that customs charges, exchange rates and shipping hassles are just the facts of life. The internet can make it feel like we're all right next door to each other, especially when you can place an order online in your own currency and make international phone calls for free with services like Skype. But that fact of the matter is that when you want to move physical things from one place to another you've got a whole ocean and two national governments standing in the way. The unexpected delays and charges sending things back and forth drove me absolutely crazy for our first year here until I decided that this was just the nature of the beast and I'll just have to live with it. So when I order something I assume I'll be hit with full import duty and I'm happy if I'm not, instead of the other way around. And I've learned to adopt a state of mind where I don't really care that we get charged every Christmas to receive packages of presents.

There are people who will look to pinch every penny and get the best deal no matter what, and there are people who make the very act of purchasing an investment in the place and people that they do business with. There's nothing wrong with either approach in the right circumstances, but penny pinching and international commerce (and predictability for that matter) don't usually go easily hand in hand.

My own bit of advice from my own experience would be to find that mental place where you can just let go of the worry, because wouldn't it be a shame if every time you put on that kilt there was a little voice in the back of your head saying, "...yeah, but I really got screwed on the customs charges"?