"Cookie Cutter" Pipe Band Dress

[MacLowlife]

Lachlan, I believe the idea is that a cookie cutter makes cookies ( cakes? Biscuits?) that are identical and a cookie cutter band is one that looks like every other band. I think the distinction is between uniformity WITHIN the ranks (good) and uniformity among the various bands (not so good). The shorter word for this is copying.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Richard,

I believe the intended purpose of this thread to be the discussion of civilian Highland attire in the post-Victorian/Edwardian period. In other words the type of everyday Highland attire worn either shortly before or immediately after the 1914-1918 War, and how that mode of dress has become "traditional" within the Scottish community, and how it has evolved into those classic styles which have changed very little in the past 100 years or so.

I beg to differ, as on these very forums there have been quite a large number of people posting photos of men in kilts attending weddings and other functions wearing black argyll jackets, white hose, ghillies, and the sorts of sporrans popular amongst pipe bands today (evening, day, and hunting).

I don't disagree with your comment about photos, but I do think it needs to be looked at in some sort of context when you bring band uniforms into the discussion.

By and large (at least these days) pipe bands the world over tend to be private clubs of like-minded individuals who enjoy piping and marching. With the scant exception of those bands who enjoy the privilege of "the sky is the limit" funding, costs are-- and always have been-- a major concern for bands. I am sure you will agree that the single greatest cost (other than the pipes) facing a band is the cost of the band uniform. And since this cost is quite often, if not usually, borne in its entirety by the individual band member, the least expensive option is usually the one ticked off by the band.

Since it is hard, cold economics that dictate how a band will be uniformed and since not all bands have pockets as deep as the Saint Andrew's Society of Washington DC pipes, drums, and colour guard (www.saintandrewsociety.org), it is not surprising that they would elect to dress in the least expensive, most readily accessible outfit. Hence Argyll jackets and the other accouterments of civilian attire worn by bandsmen.

The question of what makes something "historical" as opposed to "traditional" is a difficult one to answer, but to me the difference between the two terms is continuity of use.

So, the Great Kilt strikes me as historical, as it fell out of favour for nearly two centuries before undergoing a revival in recent times. Ghillie brogues, kilt jackets, Glengarries, and the rest of modern pipe band kit are traditional because there has been an unbroken lineage of use from their first appearance down to the present.

I will admit that one can semantically "blur the line" between historical and traditional, but the distinction really isn't that hard to make, unless one wishes to engage in parsing arguments. It is easy to see that the great kilt falls into the historical category; however, in regard to your assertion that the Argyll is traditionally worn by pipe bands, one could as easily-- and in my mind more validly-- make the argument that historically and traditionally pipe bands have worn military style uniforms, and have only recently adopted inexpensive civilian attire as their costume when performing.

But even if defining the difference between traditional and historical attire was much more difficult, the difference between what is worn by a band, and what constitutes "ordinary" Highland attire, is clearly discernible. Bands may wear civilian attire as their costume when performing (at which point it becomes their uniform), but that fact doesn't really make the topic of band uniforms something that fits into the definition of ordinary civilian Highland attire.

Likewise, lengthy lists of what tartans are popular in the world of pipe bands seems merely to underscore that this thread really does belong somewhere else: Historical (because of the constant references to The Highlanders of Scotland); Celtic Music (because it is about bands); or maybe Tartans (because of the lists of tartans worn by bands). None of this places the discussion in a civilian context, which, I believe, the "Traditional" forum is all about.

Now, having said all of that-- I personally find your posts on the subject of pipe bands to be very interesting. It is, in my opinion, unfortunate that they are scattered all over the site, rather than pulled together in one forum. Perhaps Steve and the Mods should consider a dedicated Pipe Band forum, similar to the Heraldry forum, so that these postings can attract a wider audience?

MoR

[OC Richard]

historically and traditionally pipe bands have worn military style uniforms, and have only recently adopted inexpensive civilian attire as their costume when performing.

True that most pipe bands wore military style uniforms, from the beginnings of civilian pipe bands in the late 19th century up until the 1960's and 1970's when pipe bands began abandoning that look in droves and took up wearing either Evening Dress or Day Dress, before settling on the black Argyll & Glengarry look that's still universal.

But there have always been civilian pipe bands who wore ordinary civilian Highland Dress, for example this band in 1935:

[BCTrucker]

Is not the nature and history of a Pipe band, a military inspired offering, thus making uniformity a necessary evil?
We're not talking a rock band here, where all are free to express their individuality, you are listening to a group of many who are aspiring to perform a tight, overwhelming, and some would say intimidating air of solidarity.
A single piper, I would dare say have the freedom to express some form of individuality, but, does the same conversation happen with an orchestra, or a brass marching band?
I think not, so why does the attire of a pipe band require srutiny of this magnitude?

[wildrover]

Why?

Because, with the possible exception of long-laced, open-tongue shoes, the historical progression of pipe band wear seems to be pointing toward the adoption of civilian daywear and eveningwear, as opposed to military-inspired or "gig suit"-similar attire.

SFU wears sharp civilian attire. I've seen photos of X-Marks members, similarly dressed...add pipes, and they could be part of the band.

The band with which I'm a student wears a similar outfit...or they would, if they'd drop the short-sleeve dress shirts, which IMHO look like a "uniform' no matter how you accessorize them.

-Sean

[CMcG]

In reading over the OP, it starts out by describing a band uniform that actually sounds like a regular Highland outfit and notes that tartans are the main differentiating factor amongst modern pipe bands. If it were only about tartans, this thread might be better suited to the Tartans section; if it actually mentioned music (it doesn't), it might be better suited to the Celtic Music section.

It seems to me that a Moderator might have moved this thread if it were really as out of place as some seem to think. Perhaps another thread might be needed to discuss the raison d'etre of this particular part of the forum.... rather than hijack this further, I shall therefore endeavor to relate this to Highland attire more generally.

Cookie cutter dress is altogether too common and we need look no further than mass-production, economies of scale, and tight consumer budgets for the main culprits. That being said, I suppose there are people who think looking exactly the same as others is a good thing, especially if they don't feel confident in their own sartorial judgement. What strikes me as odd is that pipe bands wouldn't try harder to differentiate themselves from the competition!

If between 2004 and 2007 there was an increase of different tartans at the World Pipe Band Championships, were there any corresponding change in the standard Glengarry, Argyll jacket, kilt, sporran type, solid coloured hose, and ghillies? A band with distinctive sporrans? Use of alternative pleating styles? Argyll jackets of a colour other than black?

[Hothir Ethelnor]

I think it would be fun to see a band wearing 7 yard kingussie kilts.

The closest Pipe Band to where I live is an amalgamation of many people (under the firefighter's banner) and each piper wears his own tartan. I think it's kind of neat. I think that for parades though, a fairly standardized combination (of accessories) is encouraged.

[OC Richard]

Humour an old Brit ! What's meant by cookie-cutter dress ?

Does it mean highly repetitive ?

That's very interesting. I used the term "cookie cutter" without stopping to think that it was an Americanism, but of course it is!

I suppose it means stamped out identically as in a production line.

Is there a British equivalent?

as in

broke his duck = got off the schnide

I guess the point of the original post was that, with all the thousands of tartans that are available, it amazed me that so many pipe bands wear the same tartans. Royal Stuart I can see, because most of the military pipe bands wear it. But why are MacLean of Duart and MacPherson so common?

The trend though seems to be changing. More and more pipe bands are going away from the once-universal white socks, and more are going to bespoke tartans, district tartans, and institutional tartans.

Meaning that there is more variety now than there was just five or ten years ago, which is a very good thing.

[fluter]

That's very interesting. I used the term "cookie cutter" without stopping to think that it was an Americanism, but of course it is!

Mental head smack!! It didn't occur to me, either. Do the British have a "biscuit cutter" in the kitchen, for making rounds of dough?

Now, if a cookie is a biscuit, what is a biscuit (Yank style)? In my part of the world, the same implement may be used for cutting both.

[Jock Scot]

Mental head smack!! It didn't occur to me, either. Do the British have a "biscuit cutter" in the kitchen, for making rounds of dough?

Now, if a cookie is a biscuit, what is a biscuit (Yank style)? In my part of the world, the same implement may be used for cutting both.

I stand to be corrected here, but I think, in British terms, the implement you are talking about is a "pastry cutter".