Harveys in Clan Keith

[bdkilted]

Does anyone know how the Norman family de Harvey became part of Clan Keith? I have most of the septs origins figured out, but not that one.

[ThistleDown]

Does anyone know how the Norman family de Harvey became part of Clan Keith? I have most of the septs origins figured out, but not that one.

I think you will find that they didn't, bdk. As you know, one of the Keith chiefs was Herveius. The Herveys (pronounced "haar-vees") are thought to have taken their name from him. They were domiciled in the Keith-Marshal area not before the early years of the 14C. There were/are other families of the name in the West not connected in any way to the Keiths of East Lothian or those who appeared later in Aberdeenshire.

[Manitoban Keith]

What I can remember is that along with the Normans who came to Great Britain in 1066, was a figure known as "de Hervey". "de Hervey" I believe meant something like "battle worthy". From England up into Scotland he and his descendents went. This would be why Harvey's can be found in Northern France, England and Scotland. I seem to remember something about one the the descendents of "de Hervey" marrying the daughter of the Chief of clan Keith and being brought into the clan structure through this marriage.

[bdkilted]

Thanks guys. I needed this information for answering questions about the origin of the name at the Highland Games.

[ThistleDown]

Thanks guys. I needed this information for answering questions about the origin of the name at the Highland Games.

If you are new to this be cautious with the information you give out, bdk. In another thread you mentioned the Keiths being a part of Clan Chattan. I know this is one of the "origin" stories attested to by an earlier Keith chief and still accepted by some Keiths around the world, but we now know the only family by the name of Keith in Clan Chattan territory during the clan centuries was a small one tenented on the Dunachton estate for a relatively brief period -- in the late 17C.

The story that it was a chief of the Clan Chattan, Robert by name, who was created Grand-Marshal of Scotland in 1010 is fictional.

Further, there is no proof that the Catti gave their name to Caithness, or that Robert was descended of the Catti, although this is a tale told. Certainly a Keith chief (by that time domiciled at Dunottar) married an heiress of Caithness and thereafter the Keiths had much to do with the political climate of that region, but not before that marriage.

The same absence of proof and balancing of facts needs to be considered when you are trying to find an origin for the Harveys. An early Keith chief is on record with the Breton name Herveus and there were Herveys and Harveys at Keith in East Lothian from the early 14C. That's a good enough origin to satisfy most enquiring minds, without attempting to tie this well-known and well-respected family to some Breton or an unrecorded marriage.

Those Harveys of the East have no relationship with the Harveys of the West who are descended of a knight of the name who came over to England with William the Bastard in 1066, or shortly thereafter, and whose descendant eventually found himself in Lowland Scotland.

[Cygnus]

I'll add an additional word of caution. People often dive into things head first, only to discover they're at the shallow end of the pool. As an "official" representative of a clan, family, or other group, people will often take what you say as gospel. There are many tales of people, so enthused about their Scottish heritage, that go and get "their" clansman's crest badge tattooed prominently (and permanently) on their body only to discover the link was tenuous at best.
While I have no such tattoos myself, I have a similar story. At a festival in Nova Scotia we were told by someone that the Swan family is a Sept of the Gunn Clan and only the Gunn clan. I was later gifted a couple of crest pins and a tie in the Gunn tartan, all of which I was quite glad to receive. I started studying the clan's history (including the long feud with the Keiths!) and really diving into it when it occurred to me that I hadn't seen a single mention of a Swan in all that reading.
Further research showed that the link of the Swans to the Gunn Clan founder was probably not accurate and that, had the genealogy been as stated, the clan would have been Clan Swan with the Gunns acting as a sept or being a separate clan altogether. It turns out that very few people with the surname Swan actually lived in Gunn territory, the name was added to the list of septs because Thurso had a large number of Swansons (who were probably descended from other Norse settlers and not from the Sweyn of Clan Gunn fame). It turns out that most Highland Swans would have been associated with the much smaller MacQueen clan (which makes sense since MacQueen possibly shares its root with the Swan surname).
Had the gentleman at that particular festival done his research, he at least would have known that Swans were also a sept of Clan MacQueen and could have mentioned that we'd need to do a bit of research to know exactly where our family belongs.
To this day I have relatives who insist we belong in Clan Gunn, though that now seems very unlikely.
The moral of that excessively long story? Tattoo removal is painful and expensive!

[ThistleDown]

Wonderful story, Brian. In one form or another it is an oft heard tale of frustration and disappointment. In defence of those who pass on tales and myths without provenance, it must be recognised that there were very energentic sept rievers in the 19C. As well, there were some prominent heads of families who collected about them every variation on a name and took ownership of those names. Those same chaps also built fantastically fictitious genealogies for themselves based on pretty much nothing.