Who were the Zeughaus Highlanders

[figheadair]

I was sent this a couple of years ago. The annotation is that of my source with whom I corresponded at the time but who is currently off-line for a while in somewhere hot and sandy.



The outfit appears to be a genuine C18th/early C19th one with the tartan corresponding to some of Wilsons' early military material.

Try as I can I cannot find other images of this which I understand was in a/the Berlin Museum pre-war. Anyone come across other images or know anything of the Zeughaus Highlanders? I'd love a colour image.

[YoungMan]

The only information I can give you is a translation. From the German I know, Zeughaus is the military term for an armory/arsenal. You mentioned a pre-war museum in Berlin, which may further the connection. "Das Zeughaus" is a German historical museum in Berlin that use to be, you guessed it, the artillery arsenal.

I can't remember the exact dates, but I know it was both a museum before and after the WWs. So the use of Zeughaus could mean a number of things. They might have been some kind of Scotch guard for the arsenal, although I've never heard mention of such a thing. If the uniform was actually housed in the Zeughaus museum, it's also entirely possible that the name is merely a reflection of it's location.

[vinhen2]

I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

http://www.oocities.com/pnw_84rhe/Uniform.htm

[figheadair]

[QUOTE=vinhen2;925848]I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

Yes, that's the same oat. You'll see that it mentions that it was lost during the war.

The original picture is interesting. I presume it's pre-war and from the museum display and shows that the staff didn't unstand how to put on the bleted plaid.

I know that the collection had some other jackets including a Napoleonic Guards' (Coldstream I think) that was discovered in a barn somewhere in Germany in 1945 by an Guards officer that recognised the buttons. This suggests that the collection was either dispersed for safe keeping an/or looted so goodness knows if the highland outfit survived.

[Highland Logan]

This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

Frank.

[figheadair]

This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

Frank.

It's not really my area of expertise but I somehow doubt it. The tartan would be correct but the jacket should have have 71st buttons which this one doesn't.

N.B The 71st disbanded in Perth in 1783.

[Highland Logan]

It's not really my area of expertise but I somehow doubt it. The tartan would be correct but the jacket should have have 71st buttons which this one doesn't.

N.B The 71st disbanded in Perth in 1783.

This is a large copy of the picture, but I still am unable to read the button numbers. And you are correct on the disbandment date. My 5th great grandfather was mustered out of the 71st and transfered to the Royal Garrison Battalion in Bermudia, and they were disbanded in 1784.

Frank

[BoldHighlander]

I can't vouch for its accuracy, but the following is an older discussion in an article for the North America 84th Regiment Association. I think it mentions the highland coat you have pictured, that is in the Zeughaus Museum in Berlin (you might want to turn the sound down on your computer):

http://www.oocities.com/pnw_84rhe/Uniform.htm

Interesting...I thought the website "went away" when geocities closed down the free websites. I created this website when I was attempting to organize a company for the NA84RA.

This picture is shown on a website claiming it to be from the 71st Fraser's Highlanders. Which would place it between 1775-1784, but they dropped the kilt in favor of canvas or tartan leggings at an unspecified date during the war.

Frank.

It's possible as the jacket in the photo appears to have white facings (71st) rather than dk blue (84th).

For the record, the recreated 84th RoF (including the 5th Coy website listed above) *never* claimed this jacket as one having belonged to the 84th, but as a period example of a Highland Regts short coat.

[BoldHighlander]

The original picture is interesting. I presume it's pre-war and from the museum display and shows that the staff didn't unstand how to put on the bleted plaid.

As I recall Peter, the photo was a glass plate (I believe that there might be other angles taken, but I have not seen them).

Not sure when glass plate photos went out of fashion, but that might give a clue to the age of the photo(?).

My other question, for the photo experts out there, I know that some early forms of photography made certain clothing colours look lighter in appearance.
Would the glass plate process make dark blue appear lighter/white?

If it did, then I'd have to ask about the lacing on the coat (would the glass plate process affect its colour too?), as both the 71st & the 84th had white lacing with a red worm (actually the 84th had blue & red worm on their lacing).

At any rate thanks for posting this photo Peter. I've heard of it but I don't recall ever seening it before now!

[figheadair]

My other question, for the photo experts out there, I know that some early forms of photography made certain clothing colours look lighter in appearance.
Would the glass plate process make dark blue appear lighter/white?

If it did, then I'd have to ask about the lacing on the coat (would the glass plate process affect its colour too?), as both the 71st & the 84th had white lacing with a red worm (actually the 84th had blue & red worm on their lacing).

You're right about the visual effects that old B&W photography has on colours but in answer to your question here; unless the facings were pale blue and so appear white then they are/were truly white, buff or yellow in this outfit. Look at the tartan where the blue in the appear lighter than the green but still not white. As the black has not similarly lightened I take this to mean that the blue here was indeed a mid and not dark navy which would be wholly consistent with the blues of C18th military setts. This would even more so if this was dyed with Logwood which was often the cheaper choice of blue for British Other Ranks in whereas Officers' blue was dyes with indigo giving a purer, deeper and lasting blue.

Without a scale or some other reference it's difficult to work out quite what's going on with the tartan. Working from my book on the 1819 counts the guy who annotated the image determined that the length had been put on upside down hence his selvedge mark comment top left. If that were the case then this would be a piece of unjoined offset plaiding used on the mannequin as an unsewn feileadh beag. If we assume for a moment that this is Wilsons' cloth then their 42nd type plaiding (42nd, 78th, 92nd etc) was 26-26.5" wide depending on regt and rank (Offrs, Sergts or ORs) and finished with a black selvedge mark. Unfortunately the top section in the picture is far from clear and I cannot work what's going on after the 'last green' but there's certain more than a selvedge mark.

Another possibility is that this is not plaiding by coarse kilt material which was wider and had more repeats.

Looking at the front there are loose pleats below the sporran but the appear flatter (sewn?) above and then there is a flat, unpleated section. I wonder if this is in fact a feileadh beag with the added flat piece intended to fold down over a belt? Intriguing.