The sgian as a weapon for fighting

[Lallans]

I was brought up with the idea that the enshrinement of the sgian dubh as a constant item of dress was a Highland response to the enforced disarming of the Gael and Border Scots in Scotland, I refer to when claymores and such were prohibited to them. Perhaps not, but if it may be allowed that I know a little about something, skinning would be one of those topics, and you would have to look VERY far in the knife world to find a blade shape more unsuitable for skinning than that of a sgian dubh. I'd rather use a axe or a piece of broken coke bottle- both of which I in fact have done.

[artificer]

It is what it is, despite the efforts of some to turn it into some sort of Scottish ninja commando dagger.

:lol I have been viewing this thread with a mixture of amazement and hilarity and I was trying to think up a suitable reply. Scott you have come up with the perfect words!

You two have just made my morning!

Folks, if you need to carry a weapon that bad, and you think your sgian dubh is the best you can do, fake a limp and start carrying a cane; you'll find that it's an almost infinitely more effective defense tool than even a larger knife would be.

Agreed, if you need to carry a weapon that bad, a knife probably isn't the best bet
A nice heavy cromach would be good as a club, or even better if you could have one made as a sword cane!?

[Rab Gordon]

I think we should remember that the Sgian Dubh's place as a cultural icon in today's world is very far removed from it's dark origins in our turbulent past. To me the custom of wearing the Sgian Dubh, unlike the sgian achais, openly and relatively inaccessibly in the stocking demonstrates that it is not being carried as a weapon and should not be viewed as a weapon.

Rab

[Dale Seago]

Count me firmly in the "the sgian dubh was not designed/intended to be a weapon" camp. If you want to carry a weapon but keep it traditionally Scottish, you might try a dirk. My own, named Tartmhor, is a early-1700s style piece from the time before dirks were just big pieces of masculine bling; you can see it on the main page of my website. Caveat: It's a lethal-force option under the law, you can't draw on someone just because they express a desire to punch you in the nose.

That said, canes are great -- with proper training. In my martial art there are (in addition to bladed weapons, flexible weapons, polearms, etc.) a gazillion ways to use a 3-foot length short staff in striking, choking, joint locking, throwing the opponent, etc. Properly understood, it's a very formidable tool. I have one from canemasters.com that goes with me everywhere, including on airplanes.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I was brought up with the idea that the enshrinement of the sgian dubh as a constant item of dress was a Highland response to the enforced disarming of the Gael and Border Scots in Scotland, I refer to when claymores and such were prohibited to them. Perhaps not, but if it may be allowed that I know a little about something, skinning would be one of those topics, and you would have to look VERY far in the knife world to find a blade shape more unsuitable for skinning than that of a sgian dubh. I'd rather use a axe or a piece of broken coke bottle- both of which I in fact have done.

The blade shape of the early sgians dubh was far more suited to skinning than is the present shape of the blade which was dictated in the 19th century by the ability to stamp the maximum number of blade shapes from the minimum length of a strip of steel. By the 1950s only two companies in Sheffield provided blade blanks, and by the 1980s blanks were being imported from both India and China. Today, unless I am very much mistaken, I do not believe any firm in Sheffield turns out mass produced blanks for sgian dubh blades, and all are imported.

The other thing to remember is that the sgian dubh wasn't the only knife used in skinning and butchering game. Deer, cattle, and hogs would have required different tools than would, say, a rabbit. (Incidentally, it is easy to skin a rabbit with your bare hands, once an incision has been made in the carcass.)

No, the sgian dubh is, and always was, a handy utility tool, a sort of pocket knife for people without pockets, as Micric pointed out earlier.

[Lallans]

Originally a non-weapon for sure, a handy tool for the pocketless of course, but by long and recorded tradition a tool that was once displayed as a symbol of defiance to enforced disarming by the authorities. I don't want to beat this into the ground (or for that matter to be beaten into the ground myself) but despite the number of times it's come up on different threads in this forum, I've seen nothing to disprove this, to me at least, charming idea. We can all carry our own sgian, that is the essence and meaning of cultural traditions that have been lost in time- like say the kilt itself.

[artificer]

The blade shape of the early sgians dubh was far more suited to skinning than is the present shape of the blade which was dictated in the 19th century by the ability to stamp the maximum number of blade shapes from the minimum length of a strip of steel. By the 1950s only two companies in Sheffield provided blade blanks, and by the 1980s blanks were being imported from both India and China. Today, unless I am very much mistaken, I do not believe any firm in Sheffield turns out mass produced blanks for sgian dubh blades, and all are imported.

There's one company that claims to make Sgians from Sheffield steel, and at a price which would indicate stamped blades HERE. As to whether or not it is Sheffield, England or "Sheffield", India, I cannot say.

[CMcG]

Considered from a Canadian legal perspective, a sgian dubh can most certainly be a weapon for fighting. Regardless of it's history or design, if it used to harm another human, it is a weapon.

The pertinent section of the Criminal Code of Canada specifies that carrying weapons is illegal but that tools, training equipment, and ceremonial items are acceptable. You can legally carry a full set of chef's knives (on your way to and from work), a sword for practicing martial arts (to and from class), or a sgian dubh in your sock.

If, on the other hand, one were to attack someone with a pen, that writing tool becomes a weapon and is punishable as such.

Here is an interesting nuance of the law in Canada: if you attack someone with your bare hands while in possession of a knife, it is considered assault with a weapon...

To tie this back to the OP, the book that stimulated this discussion seems more focused on the dirk. I haven't read it, but the product description and cover picture definitely imply this, despite the mention of "sgian" in the title. A search of the book (through Amazon) turns up the word "sgian" only in the title and the glossary.

p. 110 "sgian: Gaelic for a knife of any type. A sgian achlais is the small knife worn under the armpit. A sgian dubh is a dress knife derived from the sgian achlais. In this book, sgian is used to refer to a small knife used a backup weapon to the longer dirk."

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Originally a non-weapon for sure, a handy tool for the pocketless of course, but by long and recorded tradition a tool that was once displayed as a symbol of defiance to enforced disarming by the authorities.

Really? I'd really like to see some period documentation of this. I know it is popular myth-lore, but I have yet to be provided by anyone with a single shred of factual evidence to back this up.

I don't want to beat this into the ground (or for that matter to be beaten into the ground myself) but despite the number of times it's come up on different threads in this forum, I've seen nothing to disprove this, to me at least, charming idea. We can all carry our own sgian, that is the essence and meaning of cultural traditions that have been lost in time- like say the kilt itself.

Not wishing to beat anyone up over this, but wearing a sgian dubh isn't one of those traditions that as been "lost in time"-- on the contrary it is a Victorian affectation, and for anyone who doubts this, I would suggest that one can easily track its history simply by looking at the hundreds and hundreds of period paintings and engravings (and laterally photographs), both pre- and post- the disarming act of 1746 (repealed 1782).

For those interested in studying the history of the sgian dubh, this can best be accomplished without the aid of rose coloured spectacles.

[Woodsheal]

18th C. folks, especially fighting men and outdoorsmen, would hardly consider 3-inch bladed utility knives to be included in the definition of "arms." The notion of wearing one as a symbol of defiance of a Disarming Act makes no sense to me, unless one was seeking to provoke derisive laughter!