The sgian as a weapon for fighting

[CDNSushi]

Having spent much time on this forum, I have gotten the impression that the origins of the sgian dubh were not in the realm of the martial arts. Everything I've read here would seem to indicate that the sgian was a fashion statement that may have evolved out of the necessity of having an edged tool for hunting or outdoor work.

It seems that there's at least one book out there that seems to suggest that the sgian along with the dirk were both used in knife fighting. Not that this would surprise me, but it's the first I've heard of it, especially in a formalized, "martial art" context. Does anyone have any comments about that?

Here's an Amazon link to the book in question: http://www.amazon.com/Highland-Knife.../dp/1581605668

[Dale Seago]

While it might actually be good, useable stuff martially speaking, I'd be very cautious about assuming historical authenticity.

[Cygnus]

Reading just the introductory material, it seems the author used what (little) historical evidence is available about how the highlanders historically fought with such weapons (mainly dirks) and filled in the gaps with modern military, martial arts, and "street fighting" techniques.

Sadly, that's the way of it with things such as this. The nuances of successful martial arts practice are difficult to put in print and were (and are) often very closely guarded secrets.

Still, it seems like a decent read if you're curious about how you might actually use a dirk or sgian in self defense; though a decent tantojutsu class would probably be even more useful (though not at all correct for historical Scotland).

[Dale Seago]

Still, it seems like a decent read if you're curious about how you might actually use a dirk or sgian in self defense; though a decent tantojutsu class would probably be even more useful (though not at all correct for historical Scotland).

I'd agree. Actually, I strongly suspect that use of the dirk closely paralleled use of the dagger as seen and illustrated in surviving European combatives manuals such as Fiore dei Liberi's Flower of Battle:


http://www.medieval-fightclub.com/pr...26-Dagger.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKK1gZ3x_yk

http://wn.com/One_of_Fiore_dei_Liber...s_Dagger_plays


And the German school epitomized by Liechtenauer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC6WYDctWoE

[PEEDYC]

From what I have read the dirk was held in the same hand as the targe / shield and the other used for the sword. I have not ready anywhere about the sgian being used as a weapon and I feel that unless it was razor sharp and used as a cutting or slashing weapon it would do little harm due to the normal length of the blade. The Fairbairn Sykes Commando dagger has a 7" blade which has only one purpose and is specifically designed for that. A sgian is usually about 7" in total lenght including the handle.

[Micric]

I suppose in a historical setting, if a person got into a bad situation, Anything in their hand would feel better than nothing, same as a pen-knife today, but it goes without saying that when the dirk was worn regularly, it would be the choice when no sword was carried.

The use of the dirk was recored in a rather interesting manner in Osgood Mackenzie's book "A Hundred Years in the Highlands".....in the family history section.

[Cygnus]

From what I have read the dirk was held in the same hand as the targe / shield and the other used for the sword. I have not ready anywhere about the sgian being used as a weapon and I feel that unless it was razor sharp and used as a cutting or slashing weapon it would do little harm due to the normal length of the blade. The Fairbairn Sykes Commando dagger has a 7" blade which has only one purpose and is specifically designed for that. A sgian is usually about 7" in total lenght including the handle.

But not all Scotsmen could afford a sword, so those who could not would have to make do with what they could get.
As for the sgian, the "legend" is that it is intended as a weapon of last resort and was originally worn under the arm. Whether this bit of lore is true or not, a sgian dubh, as micric said, would be better than nothing.

[Dale Seago]

From what I have read the dirk was held in the same hand as the targe / shield and the other used for the sword.

Yes, as a secondary weapon if you can afford a targe and sword and are using them. When carried as a primary weapon in the absence of a sword, right-handers would probably use it mostly in the right hand, just as they would a sword if THAT was the primary weapon.

I have not ready anywhere about the sgian being used as a weapon and I feel that unless it was razor sharp and used as a cutting or slashing weapon it would do little harm due to the normal length of the blade. The Fairbairn Sykes Commando dagger has a 7" blade which has only one purpose and is specifically designed for that. A sgian is usually about 7" in total lenght including the handle.

Right you are. Opportunities to reach vital targets are greatly reduced with a much shorter blade; ironically this is something I've often illustrated with a 13-inch bladed Scottish dirk when teaching workshops on self-defense with tactical folders having blade lengths about the same as the average sgian dubh. For the latter, tactics need to emphasize cutting (especially large muscle groups, to disable) more than thrusting. Yet this idea may not translate well at all to a historic Highland setting where most of your wee-blade target areas may be covered with multiple layers of wool and linen.

[Woodsheal]

The little sgian dubh is, in it's origins, a utility skinning/gutting (gralloch) knife, thrust into the stocking most likely as a means of convenience.



The sgian achlais, or "armpit dagger" was a more substantial blade considered a "weapon of last resort." Why else hide it?







The two sorts of knives were originally unrelated, IMO....

[Dale Seago]

Thanks Brian, that's my understanding also.

REALLY nice sgian achlais, by the way -- who made it, if I may ask?