The name miscampbell

[BobsYourUncle]

The Clan Campbell was not responsible for the Glencoe massacre; a Campbell officer commanded the detachment of soldiers who were ordered by John Dalrymple, 1st Earl of Stair, to commit the deed, but it was not the actions of the Campbells as a clan.

T.

While you are quite correct on the facts, you have missed how the event has reverberated culturally. For example, we reenactors of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [historically associated with the Campbell clan & boar's head] are treated to a routine insult by Black Watch reenactors--these Black Watch fellows deem it necessary to loudly spit on the ground whenever they are forced to say "Argyll", in order to express their ire at the violation of the code of honor, not to mention the perceived treachery, performed by the Campbells who made up much of the detachment at Glencoe.

For those who are interested in a great read and dramatic story, I recommend John Prebble's Glencoe--The Story of the Massacre, available nearly anywhere online.

[macwilkin]

While you are quite correct on the facts, you have missed how the event has reverberated culturally. For example, we reenactors of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [historically associated with the Campbell clan & boar's head] are treated to a routine insult by Black Watch reenactors--these Black Watch fellows deem it necessary to loudly spit on the ground whenever they are forced to say "Argyll", in order to express their ire at the violation of the code of honor, not to mention the perceived treachery, performed by the Campbells who made up much of the detachment at Glencoe.

For those who are interested in a great read and dramatic story, I recommend John Prebble's Glencoe--The Story of the Massacre, available nearly anywhere online.

No, I am quite aware of that -- my brother-in-law tended bar for a time at the Clachaig Inn, with its famous "No Hawkers or Campbells" sign above the door.

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders were not affiliated with the massacre, since the regiment was an amalgamation of the 91st (Princess Louise's Argyllshire) Regiment and the 93rd (Sutherland Highlanders) Regiment during the 1881 Cardwell Army reforms.

Glenlyon's men at Glencoe were members of the Earl of Argyll's Regiment of Foot, which was disbanded in 1697 after serving in the Low Countries. Not all of its members were Campbells, but it certainly was recruited in Campbell country.

T.

[beloitpiper]

Just a shot in the dark, but is it possible that the name came from "Miss Campbell"?

Just brainstorming here, guys.

[BobsYourUncle]

No, I am quite aware of that -- my brother-in-law tended bar for a time at the Clachaig Inn, with its famous "No Hawkers or Campbells" sign above the door.

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders were not affiliated with the massacre, since the regiment was an amalgamation of the 91st (Princess Louise's Argyllshire) Regiment and the 93rd (Sutherland Highlanders) Regiment during the 1881 Cardwell Army reforms.

Glenlyon's men at Glencoe were members of the Earl of Argyll's Regiment of Foot, which was disbanded in 1697 after serving in the Low Countries. Not all of its members were Campbells, but it certainly was recruited in Campbell country.

T.

Sorry, I didn't mean to elide my historical facts. I was too brief. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders did not exist at the time of the Glencoe Massacre, but the regiment has strong Clan Campbell historical association. As you note, the 91st [originally the 98th] Argyllshire Highlanders were formed by John Campbell, 5th Duke of Argyll, in his 70's, who delegated the task to his kinsman, Duncan Campbell of Lochnell. The 91st, as it was later denominated, amalgamated with the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders in 1881. The 91st was considered a clan regiment from its formation, and retained its clan association both for the good and the bad [Glencoe] in the popular mind. The boar to which I referred is the boar of Diarmad, a clan Campbell symbol, by which the 91st was represented both before and after amalgamation, when the Campbell boar was combined with the Sutherland cat to form, with Princess Louise's cypher, the symbols of the amalgamated regiment.

See The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders: A Concise History, Trevor Royle, Mainstream Publishing, Edinburgh, 2008, pp.13-15; Fighting Highlander: The History of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, P.J.R. Mileham, Arms & Armour Press, London, 1993, pp. 14-16.

I stand by my original point, which is that culturally the A&SH, even post amalgamation, has been associated with the part that Campbells played in the Glencoe massacre. You can argue, perhaps persuasively, that the association with Glencoe is unfair, and unfairly besmirches a brave and proud regiment that has served the UK valiantly, but there will always be those who are unpersuaded. In other words, I do not expect the Black Watch to stop their spitting based on a well reasoned argument about the lack of clan responsibility for what some Campbells did in the 1690's.

What captured the popular imagination, and inspires expectoration despite the distance of time, is that the Campbell's were considered to have violated the hospitality offered by the MacDonalds of Glencoe, a shocking transgression against Highland codes of behavior. The Campbells at Glencoe stayed in the MacDonald's homes for several days before killing their hosts without any warning given. The Campbells also arose very early in the morning to slaughter their hosts, arising early to take them unawares. So it has been viewed as a sneak attack against ones host, and so doubly outrageous.

Much of the story Prebble tells is taken from documents surrounding the official inquiry which resulted from the outrcry following the massacre. From the inquiry, we actually know a fair amount about what happened and the sequence of events. Prebble gives a more even handed account of the events than my brief summary, and supplies some of the realpolitik prevailing in the UK at the time which contributed to the way it all went down, and I do not mean to take sides, only to illustrate the deep emotions this event from the 1690's continues to inspire.

I hope that clarifies my earlier post.

[Jock Scot]

"no hawkers or Campbells"

According to local legend, I also believe it to be true as I know the person in question, that particular sign has absolutely nothing to do with the dreadful events in Glencoe. It was all to do with a rather eccentric landlord in the 1960/70's who disliked merchants representatives arriving without an appointment and had a rather uncooperative bank manager who happened to be called Campbell. Nevertheless the sign does help sell an awful lot of beer!

[macwilkin]

"no hawkers or Campbells"

According to local legend, I also believe it to be true as I know the person in question, that particular sign has absolutely nothing to do with the dreadful events in Glencoe. It was all to do with a rather eccentric landlord in the 1960/70's who disliked merchants representatives arriving without an appointment and had a rather uncooperative bank manager who happened to be called Campbell. Nevertheless the sign does help sell an awful lot beer!

Jock -- that matches the story by brother-in-law tells about the sign. The irony of the pub's location being next to Glencoe, as you said, did help sell a lot of pints!

T.

[macwilkin]

Sorry, I didn't mean to elide my historical facts. I was too brief. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders did not exist at the time of the Glencoe Massacre, but the regiment has strong Clan Campbell historical association. As you note, the 91st [originally the 98th] Argyllshire Highlanders were formed by John Campbell, 5th Duke of Argyll, in his 70's, who delegated the task to his kinsman, Duncan Campbell of Lochnell. The 91st, as it was later denominated, amalgamated with the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders in 1881. The 91st was considered a clan regiment from its formation, and retained its clan association both for the good and the bad [Glencoe] in the popular mind. The boar to which I referred is the boar of Diarmad, a clan Campbell symbol, by which the 91st was represented both before and after amalgamation, when the Campbell boar was combined with the Sutherland cat to form, with Princess Louise's cypher, the symbols of the amalgamated regiment.

See The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders: A Concise History, Trevor Royle, Mainstream Publishing, Edinburgh, 2008, pp.13-15; Fighting Highlander: The History of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, P.J.R. Mileham, Arms & Armour Press, London, 1993, pp. 14-16.

I stand by my original point, which is that culturally the A&SH, even post amalgamation, has been associated with the part that Campbells played in the Glencoe massacre. You can argue, perhaps persuasively, that the association with Glencoe is unfair, and unfairly besmirches a brave and proud regiment that has served the UK valiantly, but there will always be those who are unpersuaded. In other words, I do not expect the Black Watch to stop their spitting based on a well reasoned argument about the lack of clan responsibility for what some Campbells did in the 1690's.

What captured the popular imagination, and inspires expectoration despite the distance of time, is that the Campbell's were considered to have violated the hospitality offered by the MacDonalds of Glencoe, a shocking transgression against Highland codes of behavior. The Campbells at Glencoe stayed in the MacDonald's homes for several days before killing their hosts without any warning given. The Campbells also arose very early in the morning to slaughter their hosts, arising early to take them unawares. So it has been viewed as a sneak attack against ones host, and so doubly outrageous.

Much of the story Prebble tells is taken from documents surrounding the official inquiry which resulted from the outrcry following the massacre. From the inquiry, we actually know a fair amount about what happened and the sequence of events. Prebble gives a more even handed account of the events than my brief summary, and supplies some of the realpolitik prevailing in the UK at the time which contributed to the way it all went down, and I do not mean to take sides, only to illustrate the deep emotions this event from the 1690's continues to inspire.

I hope that clarifies my earlier post.

Oh yes..."preaching to the choir" and all that.

Ironically, much of this is touched on in Colin Campbell "Mad Mitch" Mitchell's autobiography, Having Been a Soldier. Mitchell cites several incidents where his Campbell heritage was "insulted" by fellow soldiers, and even better, gives a British official a copy of Prebble's book to help him understand the tribes of Aden and their actions!

George MacDonald Fraser also notes a similar incident in his story "The General Danced at Dawn" where the "pipey" (A Gordon) makes a slightly pejorative comment about a visiting general from the Argylls being a good dancer -- "for a Campbell". The irony being that the the Campbells were Calvinists, and not inclined to dancing.

Baynes and Laffin have a very interesting discussion of Glencoe in their book, Soldiers of Scotland.

T.

[Urchurdan]

When I was a wee laddie at school in the 1950's, one of our playground songs went :- 'The Campbells are comin' ye ken by the smell, the dirty wee bug---s are runnin' like hell.'
Thats all I remember of it, but it does go to show that tribal memories linger on in the national psyche. BTW, there was only one Campbell in the school, I don't know what the poor wee soul made of it, but you know what kids are like....We probably unwittingly gave him a complex for life...

[kiltimabar]

On the subject of Campbell associations with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, I have seen maps showing purported "recruiting areas" of the Highland regiments. I have always wondered to what degree these areas were observed--were members of other clans who were not friendly with the Campbell clan (not only Macdonalds and Macleans, but others as well) required to enlist in that regiment, or was it merely optional?

Could a potential recruit from Black Watch country, for his own reasons, enlist in the Gordons, for example? Would an out-of-area recruit be fully accepted?

What about that Macdonald in the Argylls? Could they all just get along?

[macwilkin]

On the subject of Campbell associations with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, I have seen maps showing purported "recruiting areas" of the Highland regiments. I have always wondered to what degree these areas were observed--were members of other clans who were not friendly with the Campbell clan (not only Macdonalds and Macleans, but others as well) required to enlist in that regiment, or was it merely optional?

Could a potential recruit from Black Watch country, for his own reasons, enlist in the Gordons, for example? Would an out-of-area recruit be fully accepted?

What about that Macdonald in the Argylls? Could they all just get along?

Considering the number of Irishmen in the ranks of Highland regiments...



Fraser's description of the Gordons post WWII has quite a few Glaswegians in the ranks of a regiment traditionally raised from the Northeast. In the aforementioned action in Aden, the Argylls under "Mad Mitch" were pejoratively referred to as "a bunch of Glasgow thugs" by a British official, who was quickly forced to apologize for his words...

T.