The Varieties of Traditional Experience: To Jabot or not To Jabot

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Just to throw fuel on the fire...it is perfectly acceptable for black bow ties to be worn with the kilt for white tie events. Has been so for a long, long time!

I believe the wearing of a white bow tie with the kilt is a custom followed by gentlemen from Perthshire. One rarely sees others doing so.

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.

I think the confusion has arisen as a result of the relaxing of dress standards at Royal events, when during the Second World War HM King George VI gave permission for dinner jackets to be worn on formal occasions by gentlemen unable to obtain formal evening clothes due to rationing, and other exigencies of war.

[MacConnachie]

Well, dear me! Tut, tut!! (An' a' that . . .) What about for those of us who never expect to be invited, formally, to either a black tie (probably occasionally occur in the Rocky Mountain west) or a white tie (never even heard of one taking place within several hundred miles of here) event? "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that they must change it every six months," is my approximation of a favorite Oscar Wilde quote. I plan to wear a jabot and matching shirt with Montrose doublet and box-pleated kilt with accessories to our local annual Robt. Burns' Nicht this coming January. I care not a whit if I'm over-dressed compared to any other gent or lady who may show up. In the history of our event, there were years where plaid shirts were de rigueur, so to speak. If the jabot is deemed too stuffy (after "Address To A Haggis" is complete) then I'll simply remove the doublet and jabot, and carry on as though nothing matters . . . and so what if it were to do? As to pin, crest or whatever on a jabot, I have seen it done, although I'm uncertain if it's a look I wish to emulate, even for a few hours. To each their personal preference, and to blazes with the Fashion Police!!!

[davidlpope]

I care not a whit if I'm over-dressed compared to any other gent or lady who may show up. If the jabot is deemed too stuffy (after "Address To A Haggis" is complete) then I'll simply remove the doublet and jabot, and carry on as though nothing matters . . . and so what if it were to do? To each their personal preference, and to blazes with the Fashion Police!!!

Hopefully some other members of the forum will be in attendance at the event. If so, I'm sure you'll be well-lauded with that now-storied refrain which bursts forth from the gullet of any "true X-Marker" upon being presented with such a display of studied obliviousness:

"You Wear it Well!"

[Cygnus]

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.
...

Those are my sentiments as well, though not for the same reasons - not everyone is familiar with traditional Highland attire and some might perceive the black bowtie as an unintended faux pas rather than proper for wear with the kilt.

And while the tie ought to be white, I have seen it done and have no qualms with wearing a black waistcoat with a white bowtie, suitable jacket, and kilt at white tie events.

[kilted scholar]

not everyone is familiar with traditional Highland attire and some might perceive the black bowtie as an unintended faux pas rather than proper for wear with the kilt.

And while the tie ought to be white, I have seen it done and have no qualms with wearing a black waistcoat with a white bowtie, suitable jacket, and kilt at white tie events.

Could someone please enlighten me on this - were traditional Highland crofters familiar with white tie and black tie events?! : )

[JSFMACLJR]

Could someone please enlighten me on this - were traditional Highland crofters familiar with white tie and black tie events?! : )

Yes, of course they were/are.

[JSFMACLJR]

I believe it was the custom in Perthshire to only wear white tie.

Those who are kilted and who wear black tie to white tie events seem to be following the custom of some military mess dress, rather than civilian standards of attire. White tie is white tie, and that's what should properly be worn, unless one is in uniform and their service regulations decree otherwise.

I think the confusion has arisen as a result of the relaxing of dress standards at Royal events, when during the Second World War HM King George VI gave permission for dinner jackets to be worn on formal occasions by gentlemen unable to obtain formal evening clothes due to rationing, and other exigencies of war.

We may have gone over this before, Scott. It is a bit puzzling that most gentlemen wearing the kilt to THE Highland balls ( and the Royal Caledonian Ball in London ) wear a black tie. Men not in Highland dress MUST wear a tail coat and white tie. This doesn't seem to be a "modern" trend. Here is a photograph of The Hon Andrew Elphinstone--a cousin of HM The Queen--at the Callie in 1938.


Your theory about civilians following mess dress regulations and wearing black ties may have some validity. I do know from personal experience that most men wear black ties with the kilt to white tie events. I don't. I wear a jabot; occasionally a white tie. Still though, it is odd how this anomoly is commonplace.

PS. Of course there is this photograph:
two of the Royal Dukes at this State Banquet are wearing black bow ties to the whitest of white tie events!

[CMcG]

<snip> Still though, it is odd how this anomoly is commonplace.

PS. Of course there is this photograph:

two of the Royal Dukes at this State Banquet are wearing black bow ties to the whitest of white tie events!

So technically speaking, if one wears a bow tie to a white tie, it should be white. But in practice, one could do worse than to follow the example of the Royal Dukes?

That is to say, a literal black tie worn with fullest formal accouterments is actually a metaphorical white tie...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Your theory about civilians following mess dress regulations and wearing black ties may have some validity. I do know from personal experience that most men wear black ties with the kilt to white tie events. I don't. I wear a jabot; occasionally a white tie. Still though, it is odd how this anomoly is commonplace.

Like yourself I have never worn a black tie, in lieu of a white tie, to a "white tie" event, kilted or otherwise. I suspect that the anomaly is due in large measure to the fact that very few kilted gentlemen posses a white waistcoat suitable for wear with Highland attire, and thus fall back on the black tie option by default.

PS. Of course there is this photograph:

two of the Royal Dukes at this State Banquet are wearing black bow ties to the whitest of white tie events!

In this instance both HRH The Duke of Rothsey and HRH The Duke of Edinburgh are in uniform-- both are wearing Windsor Jackets (Edinburgh's of a more traditional cut than his son's)-- and in keeping with the tradition of mess jackets, black tie is the prescribed dress.

What I find interesting-- and this is why "royals" should not always be considered as impeccably dressed-- is that Edinburgh seems to be wearing a Balmoral tartan waistcoat, whilst Rothsey looks to be wearing velvet slippers. Ah well... one must forgive the sartorial indiscretions of youth.

What I very much would like to see is a photograph of Rothsey showing his left side, and how he managed to wear the broad riband and lesser George of his Order of the Garter. (For the record the actual Garter can be seen on his left leg at the top of his hose, ditto for Edinburgh.)

[JSFMACLJR]

What I very much would like to see is a photograph of Rothsey showing his left side, and how he managed to wear the broad riband and lesser George of his Order of the Garter. (For the record the actual Garter can be seen on his left leg at the top of his hose, ditto for Edinburgh.)

I don't think the D of R is wearing the Garter Riband. I believe he's wearing a Swedish order...the Royal Order of the Seraphim. Therefore he would not be wearing the Lesser George.