Irish Saffron Kilt

[beloitpiper]

But the idea of skirting the léine seems preposterous, if we want to bring back the léine to modern times, why not do it the right way?

...the real question is if we actually want to...

[figheadair]

Ditto meaning you agree, or Ditto meaning that you think that both pieces are inaccurate in regards to Irish dress?

Sorry, I meant that I think both are inaccurate, over romanticised representations of Irish Dress.

I'm suggesting is that people of Irish descent can wear the belted plaid as a part of their heritage just as legitimately as the Highland Scots can, since some Irish brats were tartans.

At what time are you suggesting that the Irish, as opposed to the Galloglass, wore tartan and if so at what date?

[MacSpadger]

The second image, the woodcut, comes from The Image of Ireland, by John Derrick, which was published in London in 1581 by John Daye.
Daye's illustrators were all Dutchmen, (for religious reasons!).

Many people say that The Image of Ireland provides important evidence of Irish dress, but the truth it that the woodcuts were made in the Fleet area of London by a team of Dutchmen under the employ of an Englishman. None of them had been to Ireland.

[BoldHighlander]

Many people say that The Image of Ireland provides important evidence of Irish dress, but the truth it that the woodcuts were made in the Fleet area of London by a team of Dutchmen under the employ of an Englishman. None of them had been to Ireland.

Really? hmmmm....

[BoldHighlander]

Sorry, I meant that I think both are inaccurate, over romanticised representations of Irish Dress.

Peter, I understand & agree with your assesment that the first illustration was an "inaccurate, over romanticised representations of Irish Dress", but I'm curious why you consider the above woodcut to also be inaccurate & over romanticised?
Is it because John Derricke was English?
(I'm just curious.)

From Ospery Publishings "The Irish wars 1485-1603" (Man-At-Arms Series #256) by Ian Heath a brief history/description of the woodcuts:
"The best depictions of Irish warfare in the Tudor period are the series of 12 woodcuts to be found in 'Derricke's The Image of Ireland', published in 1581 but portraying events during Sir Henry Sidney's second viceroyalty, 1575-78 --probably his itinerary round Ireland from October 1575 to April 1576."

From what I read a few years ago from varied historical sources, there is speculation that Derricke was a retainer to Sir Henry Sidney & was an eyewitness to the events in Ireland during this period.

In a correspondence I had with Brian Donovan CEO, Eneclann Ltd./Archive CD Books Ireland, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland) back in March 2007 regarding these woodcuts, he said:
"There has been much debate in Ireland about Derricke's wood cuts. They are extremely valuable works, but have been sometimes taken out of context. Derricke's main interest was to record what Ireland was like in the context of Sir Henry Sidney (the Lord Deputy of Ireland) and his very military campaign against Gaelic rebels.
So most of his wood cuts show military activity, and Sidney being hailed as the saviour of the country in Dublin, by throngs of adoring public. The truth is that Sidney's regime was very unpopular in Ireland, even among the Anglo-Irish (or descendents of the Anglo-Norman settlers)."

When I conducted further digging (shortly after the above correspondence) on John Derricke I found that historians are universal in their opinion that the poetry found in his book:
"has long been considered a conventional attack on Irish barbarism, influenced by an increasingly brutal form of English colonialism, and intended to justify the mistreatment of Ireland's native population. Despite the low opinion critics have awarded its verse, the book occupies a key position in the literature depicting
sixteenth-century Ireland, recognized by a leading authority as "one of the most influential Elizabethan books on Ireland."

However, by the same token these same historians see the artwork (woodcuts) of the Irish in Derricke's book as "fascinating" / "historically accurate" /& "the best example of Irish warfare from the Tudor period".

[BoldHighlander]

Here are some period illustrations (not from Derricke) purported to be of Irish / Scottish dress. I am not going to vouch one way or the other to their authenticity....with captions:

Crude rendition of MacSweeny galloglasses,
from Goghe's Map of 1567.



Woodcut of 1588 by Casper Rutz of an Irish soldier serving on the continent, probably one of the Irish auxiliaries who accompanied the Earl of Leicester's expedition to the Netherlands in 1586.



Woodcut of scotsmen hunting, from Holinshed's Chronicle, 1577.
In his text Holinshed describes such 'wild Scots' inhabiting the Highland region
as being called 'the Redshanks, or rough footed Scots, because they go
barefooted and clad in mantles over their saffron shirts after the Irish manner'.



French woodcuts of 1562 representing Scotsmen. The capitaine sauvage is armed with claymore and bow, typical weapons of the 'New Scots' serving in Ireland. The other wears the enveloping 'shaggy mantle' that was common to both Highlanders and Irishmen.

[BoldHighlander]

The OP's image of Colonel Niall O Neill, a Jacobite veteran of the Battle of the Boyne reminded me of this portrait of Captain Thomas Lee. However, unlike the OP's post dated 1680, Lee's portrait was done in 1594, when he was 43 years-old, by the Flemish artist Marcus Gheeraerts the Younger. It was probably commissioned by his cousin, Henry Lee of Ditchley. The subject is shown in the regalia of a captain of the Queen's Kern (a hybrid combination of English & Irish dress), posing with legs and feet bare, and armed with shield, spear and pistol. Lee served in Ireland continuosly from 1575 to 1599.

[figheadair]

Peter, I understand & agree with your assesment that the first illustration was an "inaccurate, over romanticised representations of Irish Dress", but I'm curious why you consider the above woodcut to also be inaccurate & over romanticised?
Is it because John Derricke was English?
(I'm just curious.)

From Ospery Publishings "The Irish wars 1485-1603" (Man-At-Arms Series #256) by Ian Heath a brief history/description of the woodcuts:
"The best depictions of Irish warfare in the Tudor period are the series of 12 woodcuts to be found in 'Derricke's The Image of Ireland', published in 1581 but portraying events during Sir Henry Sidney's second viceroyalty, 1575-78 --probably his itinerary round Ireland from October 1575 to April 1576."

From what I read a few years ago from varied historical sources, there is speculation that Derricke was a retainer to Sir Henry Sidney & was an eyewitness to the events in Ireland during this period.

In a correspondence I had with Brian Donovan CEO, Eneclann Ltd./Archive CD Books Ireland, Trinity College Dublin (Ireland) back in March 2007 regarding these woodcuts, he said:
"There has been much debate in Ireland about Derricke's wood cuts. They are extremely valuable works, but have been sometimes taken out of context. Derricke's main interest was to record what Ireland was like in the context of Sir Henry Sidney (the Lord Deputy of Ireland) and his very military campaign against Gaelic rebels.
So most of his wood cuts show military activity, and Sidney being hailed as the saviour of the country in Dublin, by throngs of adoring public. The truth is that Sidney's regime was very unpopular in Ireland, even among the Anglo-Irish (or descendents of the Anglo-Norman settlers)."

However, by the same token these same historians see the artwork (woodcuts) of the Irish in Derricke's book as "fascinating" / "historically accurate" /& "the best example of Irish warfare from the Tudor period".

Terry,

I'd be the first to admid that this is not my area expertise but there's something about the woodcut that didn't ring true to me and the infomation that you supplied supports my gut feeling.

Are we to assume therefore that the woodcut is supposed to depict Sir Henry? That being the case he'll be the chap in the centre. The one on his left is probably/possibly his squire, and therefore possibly also English and dressed as such, which leaves the chap coming out of the woods whom one supposes represents the Irish. He looks to be wearing some sort of doublet with trews and shoes but whether that's styalised or accurate is anyone's guess.

The reference to "the best example of Irish warfare from the Tudor period" that you mention is not qualified and could easily refer to the weapons and the mix of horse and foot soldiers.

I remain unconvinced that this offers much in the way of defininitive comment on the native dress.

[BoldHighlander]

Are we to assume therefore that the woodcut is supposed to depict Sir Henry? That being the case he'll be the chap in the centre. The one on his left is probably/possibly his squire, and therefore possibly also English and dressed as such, which leaves the chap coming out of the woods whom one supposes represents the Irish. He looks to be wearing some sort of doublet with trews and shoes but whether that's styalised or accurate is anyone's guess.

No, it depicts an Irish chieftain.

I remain unconvinced that this offers much in the way of defininitive comment on the native dress.

I'm not sure what I could do to convince you one way or the other, Peter. And I'm not saying its definitive, however its probably one of the better looks at native Irish dress during the period....even if it was done by the enemy

[BoldHighlander]

Are we to assume therefore that the woodcut is supposed to depict Sir Henry?

Peter, I was thinking I could scan & post all 12 woodcuts, with captions, if anyone is interested.

It will have to wait until later tomorrow though, its late here & I need to go to bed soon